Is Jasprit Bumrah an ATG test bowler?

[Rob Wesley]

Bangladesh are the only Asian team to win a test in NZ in about the last 12/13 years. They have drawn their last 3 series against NZ, Australia, and England 1-1.

The Windies have won more tests in Australia in the last 10 years than England, NZ, Pakistan, and Sri Lanka combined. They haven't lost a test series at home to England in about 20 years.

I think Bangladesh is probably a better side than being called as minnows. But again I don’t think we can equate the quality of wickets taken of Bangladeshi batters to the quality of wickets taken of England or Australia batters. If Rabada or Bumrah picks 5-fer vs Aus and then picks 5-fer vs Bangladesh, we can’t say that both the achievements are of equal proportion or even comparable.

West Indies are minnows. They won one test in Australia due to that memorable spell by Shamar Joseph. Their record is poor throughout and their batting is even worse.

I am just trying to devalue longevity that is built based on low quality wickets. If Bumrah picks 350 test wickets and 100 are against WI, BD and Zim at avg of 12-13 then it is not any better than him picking 275 wickets and 25 of them coming against those teams at same avg. But in the first case, he will have a better career average due to significant number of wickets being taken vs 8th and 9th ranked side.

 

[Coronis]

what is a true minnow as per you?

For me, a team that wins occasionally vs a good side but loses most of its games is a minnow.

West Indies or Bangladesh can win occasionally vs Australia or New Zealand respectively but they will likely lose a lot of games . It will be like 3-4 wins vs 25 losses. That to me is a team that falls in minnows category.

Moreover, West Indies batting is even worse, their bowling is still test standard. But batting is not worth even rating. Hence, I have excluded them when comparing today’s pacers. Anyways, they all have done well vs Windies and stat padded well. So, don’t think it makes a difference, just shows up the count of quality wickets at whatever be the average.

A minnow is a truly awful team. Like the team that inspired the term minnow. 00’s Bangladesh. 3 wins, 1 against a Zimbabwe team about to be suspended from test cricket voluntarily because they were falling apart. 2 wins against a second string Windies team where half the team was debuting. 35/52 losses by an innings or more.

 

[sayon basak]

I guess this definition works:-

Weak= weaker than other, but still can offer threat to the opponent at times.

Minnow= below test standard/ Don't deserve to play test.

 

[Rob Wesley]

Alright then, I think I am still fair in my comparisons.

I excluded BD and WI for modern era pacers.

I excluded Zim and BD for pacers from 90s. SL were also minnows only till early 90s. But I have included them.

I think picking a lot of wickets vs these sides in that era doesn’t really mean a lot from longevity point of view.

 

[ma1978]

How’s this - Bumrah has performed better against the top opposition sides than any bowler in modern history other than Marshall and even then Marshall is equivalent not better

 

[sayon basak]

Alright then, I think I am still fair in my comparisons.

I excluded BD and WI for modern era pacers.

I excluded Zim and BD for pacers from 90s. SL were also minnows only till early 90s. But I have included them.

I think picking a lot of wickets vs these sides in that era doesn’t really mean a lot from longevity point of view.

Yep, what you did was right.

 

[ankitj]

His away record excluding minnows really sets him apart from not just this era bowlers but even quite a few from 90s too. In the era of Ambrose, Wasim, Donald, Waqar and Pollock, Zimbabwe and Bangladesh can be referred as minnows. If we exclude them and look at away record, the stats are:-

Donald 140 wickets @Avg 24
Wasim 238 wickets @Avg 24
Pollock 166 wickets @Avg 27
Waqar 164 wickets @Avg 28
Walsh 290 wickets @ Avg 25

Even including great fast bowlers from 90s also, we can see that Bumrah really stands out of the mentioned above when it comes to away performances excluding minnows.

But it is not like the away record is bad for all. Marshall, McGrath, Ambrose and Hadlee still manage an average of 21-22 away from home excluding minnows. So, alongwith Bumrah, these 4 names are the standout names when it comes to away performances vs non minnows.

This further illustrates that there really shouldn’t be any question of greatness in case of Bumrah because out of his 200 wickets, 150 have been away from home vs non minnows. A lot of other fast bowlers themselves find their stats taken a hit when you exclude minnows. The gap seems big.
View attachment 44298

Even if you don't exclude "minnows", Bumrah's standing doesn't suffer.

Bowling records | Test matches | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPNcricinfo.com

stats.espncricinfo.com

 

[ankitj]

If you do include that one neutral game, he goes below Garner. But neutral venues don't count.

 

[capt_Luffy]

Even if you don't exclude "minnows", Bumrah's standing doesn't suffer.

Bowling records | Test matches | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPNcricinfo.com

stats.espncricinfo.com

I will always maintain Bumrah WI 2019 is some of the best bowling I have ever witnessed.

 

[OverratedSanity]

If you do include that one neutral game, he goes below Garner. But neutral venue don't count.

You said no minnows anyway

 

[Randomfan]

How’s this - Bumrah has performed better against the top opposition sides than any bowler in modern history other than Marshall and even then Marshall is equivalent not better

+1

Longevity based mainly on volume of wickets against bottom/minnows or just doing HTB is not really a longevity with greatness. Due to HTB, Jadeja has a lower career avg than Warne against non-minnows. All wickets are not the same and all longevity are also not the same.

Doing well away against good team has been the hardest challenge for players. If you pass some minimum cut off , you are one the greats. Ordinary players don't come in that list and Bumrah is not just passing the filter, he is pretty much in the top in that aspect in history. Marshall appears with him near the top with him. Away record against good teams separates great from good players.

Anyway, it's not hard to see that we are seeing a genius. Waiting for 100 cheap wickets against WI/SL/BD/Zim is meaningless. He is not playing Pakistan, so he will have most games against top sides of his era. So far, most of them have come away against top sides.

 

[Coronis]

I will always maintain Bumrah WI 2019 is some of the best bowling I have ever witnessed.

Doesn’t count

 

[slcricfan1]

I will always maintain Bumrah WI 2019 is some of the best bowling I have ever witnessed.

Yeah its dreadful that people will end up discounting these spells regardless of the immense skill