All Rounders Poll - Discussion

[Line and Length]

@kyear2 The whole point of this exercise is to rank Test all-rounders - not to wedge in specialist batsmen or bowlers ahead of genuine all-rounders. I concur that selecting players simply to have an "all rounder" in the side might weaken a team by keeping out a specialist. I also agree that some specialists can be useful in their lesser discipline but, especially in the case of batsmen who occasionally roll their arm over, they aren't players who are selected for their all round ability.
I believe players selected in our poll to date are all 'genuine' all rounders - even though Kallis is sometimes downgraded for his WPM and Hadlee similarly for a batting average under 30 (27,17). Hopefully the trend continues.

 

[kyear2]

@kyear2 The whole point of this exercise is to rank Test all-rounders - not to wedge in specialist batsmen or bowlers ahead of genuine all-rounders. I concur that selecting players simply to have an "all rounder" in the side might weaken a team by keeping out a specialist. I also agree that some specialists can be useful in their lesser discipline but, especially in the case of batsmen who occasionally roll their arm over, they aren't players who are selected for their all round ability.
I believe players selected in our poll to date are all 'genuine' all rounders - even though Kallis is sometimes downgraded for his WPM and Hadlee similarly for a batting average under 30 (27,17). Hopefully the trend continues.

Hammond was a quite useful 5th bowler. I've read comments where some had ranked him and one of the great all rounders prior to Sobers.

Not trying to upset you poll, but don't see how he isn't an all rounder.

 

[Line and Length]

Hammond was a quite useful 5th bowler. I've read comments where some had ranked him and one of the great all rounders prior to Sobers.

Not trying to upset you poll, but don't see how he isn't an all rounder.

Voting for him doesn't upset my poll nor do I disagree with your opening comment. I expect some members will vote for him, while others may continue to ignore him. That's their prerogative.

His low WPM (0.98) and bowling average (37.81) reduce my perception of him as an all-rounder but I have no problem with others voting for him.

 

[CricAddict]

There are a few players who started as bowlers but then focused on batting and turned into batsmen who can bowl. Jayasuriya, Shoaib Malik, Vettori are a few who come to mind. Throwing their names as well into the ring.

This is excluding players like Steve Smith and Afridi who rarely batted or bowled after turning specialists in one discipline.

 

[subshakerz]

Who's whining.

And dude, a lot of it was. Don't comment on things that you either didn't observe or ignored at the time.

I've posted multiple video clips that speaks to it, and by it, specially the WI quicks, and especially the same ones that extolled Lillee and Thompson previously... Think even @Johan spoke to it a few weeks or months back.

And do you really want to start? Really?

Anyways, I will try my best to ignore you.

Why was Marshall downgraded because of race but Roberts was not?

 

[subshakerz]

Honestly think Tony Greig is probably the most underrated AR ever. He should be in the top 10.

 

[sayon basak]

Honestly think Tony Greig is probably the most underrated AR ever. He should be in the top 10.

Played for only 6 years. Shouldn't be featured in any top ten imo.

If he had a long career, his batting average would drop way below 40 (just like his FC record) imo.

 

[subshakerz]

And quite frankly, I do think is production isn't far from Imran's. You can disagree.

But Imran's production didn't meet his average and boosted by some skiing.

You always ignore the 80s context.

Imran was 30 runs an innings in terms of output for a lower order bat. A regular middle order 80s bat like Mike Gatting was 31 per innings. Imran was perfectly fine in terms of output for a 6/7.

Kallis similarly lacks the wpm. But again, he wasn't asked to.

And as PEWS said, it's a role not a designation. Always believed that.

Kallis did minnow bashing and once you remove that, his output simply does not remotely match Sobers/Imran level and he doesn't deserve to be put there. As Kimber pointed out, he was reluctant in that role as his career progressed which you dock Miller for.

As for his role, it was reduced as his career progressed to him being a part time bowler by the end.

 

[Qlder]

How does Jadeja challenge for the top 10 allrounders of all time? Has there ever been an allrounder dropped as any times as he has in his career? He's like Stuart MacGill, only makes the XI when it suits his game

 

[subshakerz]

How does Jadeja challenge for the top 10 allrounders of all time? Has there ever been an allrounder dropped as any times as he has in his career? He's like Stuart MacGill, only makes the XI when it suits his game

He is struggling to make the top 10 ARs yet some here like to suggest he is an ATG.

 

[Line and Length]

Played for only 6 years. Shouldn't be featured in any top ten imo.

If he had a long career, his batting average would drop way below 40 (just like his FC record) imo.

Re Tony Greig. He played 58 Tests, not to mention WSC. If you wish to downgrade him on a lack of longevity, perhaps I should point out that Miller and Faulkner (already voted into the Top Ten) played fewer Tests than Greig.

 

[capt_Luffy]

Re Tony Greig. He played 58 Tests, not to mention WSC. If you wish to downgrade him on a lack of longevity, perhaps I should point out that Miller and Faulkner (already voted into the Top Ten) played fewer Tests than Greig.

You know as well as I do that longevity works more in terms of years not matches. He played more matches than Jack Hobbs, shall we say he has a better longevity?? Greig's batting average in non Test FC matches is 28.

 

[sayon basak]

Re Tony Greig. He played 58 Tests, not to mention WSC. If you wish to downgrade him on a lack of longevity, perhaps I should point out that Miller and Faulkner (already voted into the Top Ten) played fewer Tests than Greig.

Miller had a career 11 years long, double the amount of Greig.

And ain't gonna blame Faulkner for losing 5 years in the war. And are we really gonna compare someone playing in the mid 70's with a pre war player by how many matches they played?

 

[Line and Length]

You know as well as I do that longevity works more in terms of years not matches. He played more matches than Jack Hobbs, shall we say he has a better longevity?? Greig's batting average in non Test FC matches is 28.

Miller had a career 11 years long, double the amount of Greig.

And ain't gonna blame Faulkner for losing 5 years in the war. And are we really gonna compare someone playing in the mid 70's with a pre war player by how many matches they played?

Points taken. I acknowledge the fallacy in my comparisons.
However, regarding comparing FC averages with Test averages, there have been many cases where players have a superior average on the Test stage. There can be several explanations. The more obvious one might be that their Test career was played at their peak while their FC career might begin with a developmental stage and end with a few years beyond their 'best by' date. Another explanation can be a player might apply themselves more determinedly in Tests than at a FC level. Barrington was a classic example of the latter (Test ave 58.67 & FC ave 45.63). Besides, this poll is about TEST all rounders so, as far as I'm concerned, their first class career holds little relevance.

 

[capt_Luffy]

Points taken. I acknowledge the fallacy in my comparisons.
However, regarding comparing FC averages with Test averages, there have been many cases where players have a superior average on the Test stage. There can be several explanations. The more obvious one might be that their Test career was played at their peak while their FC career might begin with a developmental stage and end with a few years beyond their 'best by' date. Another explanation can be a player might apply themselves more determinedly in Tests than at a FC level. Barrington was a classic example of the latter (Test ave 58.67 & FC ave 45.63). Besides, this poll is about TEST all rounders so, as far as I'm concerned, their first class career holds little relevance.

It won't have held much relevance, had Greig had a 12 year long Test career, atleast. He doesn't. Barrington also had one of 10 years and played in relatively his peak, Greig took it to the extreme. No shade of him, did very well in his 6 year career, but it was a 6 year Test career; and his FC average, however spun, implies that he was quite lucky it was 6 years long. I find it hard to rate him over Mushtaq Mohammad for eg.

 

[Qlder]

It won't have held much relevance, had Greig had a 12 year long Test career, atleast. He doesn't. Barrington also had one of 10 years and played in relatively his peak, Greig took it to the extreme. No shade of him, did very well in his 6 year career, but it was a 6 year Test career; and his FC average, however spun, implies that he was quite lucky it was 6 years long. I find it hard to rate him over Mushtaq Mohammad for eg.

Tony Greig would have likely had a 10-11 year career if he didn't burn his bridges with WSC. Also how can you say his average would have went down, for all you know he could have done a Gooch and got better with age

 

[capt_Luffy]

Tony Greig would have likely had a 10-11 year career if he didn't burn his bridges with WSC. Also how can you say his average would have went down, for all you know he could have done a Gooch and got better with age

Because so he did in FC matches (unless you think he was not giving his best, for some reasons). His FC batting average in non Test matches is 28, he played all his games during the peak of his career that coincided with his FC peak.

 

[Qlder]

Because so he did in FC matches (unless you think he was not giving his best, for some reasons). His FC batting average in non Test matches is 28, he played all his games during the peak of his career that coincided with his FC peak.

Who knows, maybe he debuted in FC too young (at 19) and played many FC games before he was good. He obviously then got good enough in FC to make his test debut and carried on the good form.

 

[sayon basak]

Who knows, maybe he debutedin FC too young and played many FC games before he was good. He obviously then got good enough in FC to make his test debut and carried on the good form.

Debuting at the age of 20 in FC is too early?

 

[capt_Luffy]

Who knows, maybe he debutedin FC too young and played many FC games before he was good. He obviously then got good enough in FC to make his test debut and carried on the good form.

To an extent might be but not really. It wasn't way off for debuting early and playing till his old age. He genuinely struggled to get his batting average over 30 in both County and in SA. He very much was a balanced allrounder in FC, England had played plenty of those in Tests (Brian Close for eg, though Greig was significantly better than him). He himself and some other South Africans from the time have said he likely won't had got a game for SA.