The ATG Teams General arguing/discussing thread

[Prince EWS]

Jadeja makes no sense. Put him in and the team loses 3 consecutive home tests. Take him out and the team wins straight away, away.

Yeah replace him with Reddy for sure.

 

[kyear2]

 

[kyear2]

 

[peterhrt]

All-Time New Zealand XI selected in 1936 by cricket historian Thomas Reese. He had played first-class cricket in New Zealand during a thirty-year period from 1888. First-class career spans in brackets.

Stewie Dempster (1921-48)
Lance Hemus (1905-22)
Syd Hiddleston (1909-29)
Roger Blunt (1917-35)
Ces Dacre (1814-36)
Dan Reese* (1895-1921)
Arnold Williams+ (1887-1909)
Arthur Fisher (1891-1910)
Alec Downes (1882-1914)
Ernie Upham (1892-1910)
Charlie Frith (1877-90)

The author conceded that this team would lose to England, Australia and South Africa but reckoned it would give them a decent game. Since 1930 NZ had drawn seven and lost five official Tests, and between 1905 and 1928 drew three and lost seven "internationals" against Australia.

General standards in NZ domestic cricket had apparently been higher before the war than after. Dempster was the best batsman to date and Reese the leading all-rounder. Williams was the third best wicket-keeper but a more capable batsman than Boxshall or Rowntree. Fourth best was Ken James who in England was considered the leading NZ keeper before Ian Smith.

Upham was a great slip catcher and Hiddleston very good. In the outfield Reese was outstanding, with Dacre, Demspter and Downes also high class. Frith was a poor fielder but a very valuable stock bowler. Modern sources refer to him as an off-spinner but Thomas Reese said he was a medium-pacer and is more likely to be correct. The author acknowledges a lack of pace in the attack but prefers the more consistent fast-medium Upham and left-arm swerver Fisher. Off-spinner Alec Downes took 311 first-class wickets in 51 matches at an average of 14, including several with a quicker arm-ball.

With all-rounder Blunt bowling leg-spin, there is no place for a specialist googly bowler such as Sandman or Merritt.

In a speech in 1952, President of the NZ Cricket Council Tom Lowry said the five greatest NZ cricketers to date were Dan Reese, Hiddleston, Cowie, Donnelly and Sutcliffe.

 

[capt_Luffy]

All-Time New Zealand XI selected in 1936 by cricket historian Thomas Reese. He had played first-class cricket in New Zealand during a thirty-year period from 1888. First-class career spans in brackets.

Stewie Dempster (1921-48)
Lance Hemus (1905-22)
Syd Hiddleston (1909-29)
Roger Blunt (1917-35)
Ces Dacre (1814-36)
Dan Reese* (1895-1921)
Arnold Williams+ (1887-1909)
Arthur Fisher (1891-1910)
Alec Downes (1882-1914)
Ernie Upham (1892-1910)
Charlie Frith (1877-90)

The author conceded that this team would lose to England, Australia and South Africa but reckoned it would give them a decent game. Since 1930 NZ had drawn seven and lost five official Tests, and between 1905 and 1928 drew three and lost seven "internationals" against Australia.

General standards in NZ domestic cricket had apparently been higher before the war than after. Dempster was the best batsman to date and Reese the leading all-rounder. Williams was the third best wicket-keeper but a more capable batsman than Boxshall or Rowntree. Fourth best was Ken James who in England was considered the leading NZ keeper before Ian Smith.

Upham was a great slip catcher and Hiddleston very good. In the outfield Reese was outstanding, with Dacre, Demspter and Downes also high class. Frith was a poor fielder but a very valuable stock bowler. Modern sources refer to him as an off-spinner but Thomas Reese said he was a medium-pacer and is more likely to be correct. The author acknowledges a lack of pace in the attack but prefers the more consistent fast-medium Upham and left-arm swerver Fisher. Off-spinner Alec Downes took 311 first-class wickets in 51 matches at an average of 14, including several with a quicker arm-ball.

With all-rounder Blunt bowling leg-spin, there is no place for a specialist googly bowler such as Sandman or Merritt.

In a speech in 1952, President of the NZ Cricket Council Tom Lowry said the five greatest NZ cricketers to date were Dan Reese, Hiddleston, Cowie, Donnelly and Sutcliffe.

So the Kiwis generally didn't count Grimmett as one of their own??

 

[peterhrt]

So the Kiwis generally didn't count Grimmett as one of their own??

No. He was left out of the squad to tour Australia in 1913-14 and promptly emigrated. Reese also said that Grimmett wouldn't have made an all-time Australian team in 1936.

 

[capt_Luffy]

Best touring XIs by country:

Australia:

Jack Hobbs
Herbert Sutcliffe
Wally Hammond
Sachin Tendulkar
Viv Richards*
Aubrey Faulkner
Rishabh Pant+
Richard Hadlee
Curtly Ambrose
Jasprit Bumrah
Sydney Barnes

Subs:
Ken Barrington
Garry Sobers
Imran Khan
Denis Lindsay+
Bobby Peel



England:

Gordon Greenidge
Graeme Smith
Don Bradman*
Rahul Dravid
Viv Richards
Garry Sobers
Adam Gilchrist+
Malcolm Marshall
Shane Warne
Dennis Lillee
Glenn McGrath

Subs:
Bruce Mitchell
Allan Border
Jock Cameron+
Mutthiah Muralitharan
Joel Garner


South Africa:

Jack Hobbs
David Warner
Neil Harvey
Sachin Tendulkar
Virat Kohli
Ben Stokes*
Adam Gilchrist+
Pat Cummins
Clarrie Grimmett
Jasprit Bumrah
Sydney Barnes

Subs:
Len Hutton
Steve Waugh
Keith Miller
Les Ames+
Shane Warne


India:

Alaistar Cook
Matthew Hayden
Steve Smith
Everton Weekes
Clive Lloyd
Garry Sobers
Andy Flower+
Richie Benaud*
Malcolm Marshall
Nathan Lyon
Dale Steyn

Subs:
Alvin Kallicharran
Jacques Kallis
Jeff Dujon+
Derek Underwood
Courtney Walsh


West Indies:

Sunil Gavaskar
Graham Gooch
Rahul Dravid
Mohinder Amarnath
Steve Waugh
Imran Khan*
Kapil Dev
Alan Knott+
Wasim Akram
Glenn McGrath
Mutthiah Muralitharan

Subs:
Len Hutton
Allan Border
Adam Gilchrist+
Bishen Singh Bedi
Angus Fraser


Pakistan:

Sunil Gavaskar
Sanath Jayasuriya
Rahul Dravid
Jacques Kallis
Mohinder Amarnath
Allan Border*
Kumar Sangakkara+
Shaun Pollock
Malcolm Marshall
Mutthiah Muralitharan
Courtney Walsh

Subs:
Virendra Sehwag
Harry Brook
Richie Benaud
Alan Knott+
Chaminda Vaas


New Zealand:

Gordon Greenidge
Herschelle Gibbs
Rahul Dravid
Javed Miandad
Allan Border*
Ian Botham
Adam Gilchrist+
Wasim Akram
Shane Warne
Joel Garner
Glenn McGrath

Subs:
Graeme Smith
Jacques Kallis
Andy Flower+
Mutthiah Muralitharan
Dennis Lillee


Sri Lanka:

Virendra Sehwag
Tamim Iqbal
Brian Lara
Sachin Tendulkar
Stephen Fleming*
Mushfiqur Rahim+
Imran Khan
Richard Hadlee
Ravichandran Ashwin
Wasim Akram
Shane Warne

Subs:
Younis Khan
Inzamam-ul-Haq
Sarfaraz Ahmed+
Waqar Younis
Mohammad Asif

 

[JBMAC]

Memories of Australian and World Cricket
Joe Maiorana · 3h ·

https://www.facebook.com/#
On this day , 95 years ago
Don Bradman scores the then world record 452 not out at the SCG
On the 6th January 6, 1930, he pulverised the QLD attack at Sydney by scoring an unbeaten 452 for NSW
QLD had run the strong NSW team close in the first innings. Captain Alan Kippax, along with all-rounder Alan Fairfax and the brilliant Stan McCabe, made the hosts a formidable line-up. And of course, there was also the little matter of the 21-year-old Don Bradman at the top of the order.
But, in the first innings, Pud Thurlow and Alec Hurwood, Test bowlers both, had made them struggle on the Sydney wicket.
Opening the innings, Bradman had lasted just 5 minutes and 8 balls before snicking Hurwood for 3. NSW managed 235, and QLD , pegged back by some intelligent swing bowling by McCabe and Fairfax, had fought hard and finished just 8 short.
As the hosts batted again on the afternoon of the second day, QLD was upbeat. All they needed were some quick wickets, and the balance — precariously poised at the moment — would tilt in their favour.
And things started out smoothly enough. At 22, Hurwood got rid of Cassie Andrews and Bradman walked in at the No. 3 position he was more accustomed to.
At 33, debutant Henry Leeson effected an excellent stumping to send back makeshift opener Fairfax.
Joined by Kippax at the wicket, Bradman decided to take the initiative by the scruff of the neck. It was a singularly unequal contest. At one end was a group of hardworking trundlers, diligent and efficient, earning laurels with the sweat of their brow.
Twenty-two yards away stood a phenomenon that flashed across the world only once, a freak of nature who defied the axioms of the mortals — for whom the law of averages held no meaning.
The little man raced to 50 off 55 balls, and made a rather sedate progress to his second fifty that took 67 more deliveries.
After this he decided to break loose from whatever puny shackles that were still holding him back. The next 50 came in 43 minutes off 48 balls, and the 200 was up in a total of 209 balls, scored in just over three hours.
At the other end Alan Kippax had progressed almost unnoticed to a hundred. The stand lasted 144 minutes and amounted to 272. By the end of the day, NSW was 367 for 3, Bradman unbeaten on 205.
The world record
For lesser men, it was a fabulous day in the field. For The Don, it was just warm up for the morrow. The next morning, the 250 arrived in quick time, in less than four hours of batting. The 300 followed 46 balls later, in 288 minutes.
After McCabe and Alec Marks left in quick succession, Bradman found a solid partner in Arthur Allsopp, with whom he added 180 runs in an hour and a half. The runs kept coming at breathtaking rate. The 350 came in 333 minutes off 359 balls, and the 400 arrived in 407 balls after 376 minutes at the crease.
Apart from the faint clamour about his record on sticky wickets, not many disputed Bradman’s absolute mastery of the art of batting.
However, not all his strokes followed the rigid grammatical rules set forth in coaching manuals. The Don himself was aware of this, and a favourite photograph of his was the flowing cover drive captured in camera during this innings — the picture of technical perfection. Bradman’s batting, coasting on the crest of the platonic ideal of batsmanship, reached a plane of surreal satori during this mammoth knock.
It was perhaps the result of a dream of the greatest master of the willow that drifted on the verge of fulfilment. Bill Ponsford had set the world record score of 437 two seasons earlier, batting for against QLD at Bradman wanted the record dearly.
"On 434 ..., I had a curious intuition ... I seemed to sense that the ball would be a short-pitched one on the leg-stump, and I could almost feel myself getting ready to make my shot before the ball was delivered. Sure enough, it pitched exactly where I had anticipated, and, hooking it to the square-leg boundary, I established the only record upon which I had set my heart," he recalled later.
When wicketkeeper Hugh Davison hit the first ball bowled by Victor Goodwin back to the bowler, Kippax closed the innings. Bradman left the field borne on the shoulders of his teammates, for a megalithic 452 not out scored in 415 minutes off 465 balls with 49 hits to the fence. had declared at 761 for 8.
A shell-shocked and pulverised QLD side fell somewhat short of the 770 run target, managing 84 in their second innings. The victory margin was an enormous 685 runs.
"It's the speed with which you score runs, that is a very important factor. The world record score that I made, that 452, was made in a little over 400 minutes," Bradman recalled later.
This innings was instrumental in removing the last vestige doubt about Bradman’s claims for a place in the side to tour England in 1930.
The world record stood for 29 years before Hanif Mohammad scored 499 for Karachi against Bhawalpur in January, 1959.
Brief scores:
New South Wales 235 (Cassie Andrews 56, Alec Marks 40, Sam Everett 41; Pud Thurlow 4 for 83, Alec Hurwood 4 for 57) and 761 for 8 decl. (Don Bradman 452*, Alan Kippax 115, Stan McCabe 60, Arthur Allsopp 66; Alec Hurwood 6 for 179) beat Queensland 227 (Eric Bensted 51, Victor Goodwin 67; Alan Fairfax 3 for 53, Stan McCabe 5 for 36) and 84 (Sam Everett 6 for 23) by 685 runs.

Found this very interesting. Maybe some of you will also

 

[Coronis]

ATG XI during my time of cricket.

Smith*
Hayden
Sangakkara
Smith
Tendulkar
Kallis
Gilchrist+
Steyn
Murali
McGrath
Bumrah

I recall very little of Lara, and I recall more of Murali’s best than Warne.

Smith gets #4 over Tendulkar because I didn’t experience anywhere near his whole career.

 

[Red]

Question for everyone. Does Steve Smith make your all time world XI if he retired now?

 

[Qlder]

Question for everyone. Does Steve Smith make your all time world XI if he retired now?

He doesn't make my Aussie XI middle order yet (Bradman, Ponting, Chappell, Miller)

 

[Coronis]

Question for everyone. Does Steve Smith make your all time world XI if he retired now?

No.

 

[Coronis]

What would a combined ZIM/BAN/AFG/IRE XI look like for you guys? Would they be able to compete with the worst remaining ATG team?

 

[Thala_0710]

What would a combined ZIM/BAN/AFG/IRE XI look like for you guys? Would they be able to compete with the worst remaining ATG team?

Doing this off the top of my head so probably missing some players but here goes:
Tamim
G Flower
Houghton*
Flower
Shakib
Rahim
Litton+
Mehidy
Streak
Rashid
Jarvis

The worst remaining all time xi is probably SL which was recently voted as:
Jayasuriya
Karunaratne
Sangakkara
Jayawardene*
Aravinda
Mathews
P Jayawardene*
Vaas
Malinga
Herath
Muralitharan

The pace and opening is still a match, and if the middle order performs at its best, I could see it possibly giving the SL middle order a fight, but Murali (& Herath) surely make the SL Xi clearly better

 

[capt_Luffy]

What would a combined ZIM/BAN/AFG/IRE XI look like for you guys? Would they be able to compete with the worst remaining ATG team?

Imo:

Tamim Iqbal
Grant Flower
David Houghton*
Murray Goodwin
Andy Flower
Shakib Al Hasan
Mushfiqur Rahim+
Heath Streak
Mehidy Hasan Miraz
Rashid Khan
Mark Adair

The rest I agree with what Thala said, Murali (and to an extent Herath) makes the difference. Now, if you add uncapped players (non Big 8) to the mix...... Then depends how highly you think of Kevin Curran, Ryan ten Doescharte and most importantly, Bart King

 

[Coronis]

Imo:

Tamim Iqbal
Grant Flower
David Houghton*
Murray Goodwin
Andy Flower
Shakib Al Hasan
Mushfiqur Rahim+
Heath Streak
Mehidy Hasan Miraz
Rashid Khan
Mark Adair

The rest I agree with what Thala said, Murali (and to an extent Herath) makes the difference. Now, if you add uncapped players (non Big 8) to the mix...... Then depends how highly you think of Kevin Curran, Ryan ten Doescharte and most importantly, Bart King

Based on his FC stats, Ryan reminds me of Wally Hammond, minus a fair bit of batting talent. Of course, no guarantees that would translate.

 

[Prince EWS]

Based on his FC stats, Ryan reminds me of Wally Hammond, minus a fair bit of batting talent. Of course, no guarantees that would translate.

He's a massive fraud. Those stats are ridiculously inflated by playing in the Intercontential Cup against associates and affiliates in four day games. He was a good but not outstanding county cricketer. I reckon he probably would have taken an English Test cap if he was offered one but he wasn't.

 

[capt_Luffy]

He's a massive fraud. Those stats are ridiculously inflated by playing in the Intercontential Cup against associates and affiliates in four day games. He was a good but not outstanding county cricketer. I reckon he probably would have taken an English Test cap if he was offered one but he wasn't.

Doescharte was a quite good White ball player as much as I have seen him though.

 

[Coronis]

He's a massive fraud. Those stats are ridiculously inflated by playing in the Intercontential Cup against associates and affiliates in four day games. He was a good but not outstanding county cricketer. I reckon he probably would have taken an English Test cap if he was offered one but he wasn't.

His FC stats? According to cricket archive at least 194/203 of his FC matches were for Essex, averaging 40/35 (right around 1 WPM)

They are inflated a little bit but yeah not completely misleading imo.

 

[kyear2]

Question for everyone. Does Steve Smith make your all time world XI if he retired now?

No, but he easily makes the 2nd.

Think just possibly that a touch too much focus goes into the 1st team, even the 2nd XI is still ridiculously elite and deserves credit.