Fred Trueman vs Joel Garner

[kyear2]

Lindwall isn’t in that league with O’Reilly or Barnes. Tbh not even Lillee is up there quality wise. Although , Barnes not having proper career due to his egoistic behavior and O’Reilly due to WW2 to go with Lillee’s out of the world level contemporary rating will make him closer than it actually is.

I wouldn't get into an extended argument about it.

But in addition to succeeding Lillee as the best in the world, Marshall also somewhat eclipsed him as the greatest ever. Pretty sure Lillee also took the crown of greatest (modern?) pacer from Lindwall.

Though I would agree than Lindwall probably never rated nearly as highly rated as O'Reilly was. Just never read or heard intimated that Malcolm took his title from O'Reilly far less Barnes.

 

[Patience and Accuracy+Gut]

I wouldn't get into an extended argument about it.

But in addition to succeeding Lillee as the best in the world, Marshall also somewhat eclipsed him as the greatest ever. Pretty sure Lillee also took the crown of greatest (modern?) pacer from Lindwall.

Though I would agree than Lindwall probably never rated nearly as highly rated as O'Reilly was. Just never read or heard intimated that Malcolm took his title from O'Reilly far less Barnes.

Lillee and Marshall were both fast bowlers. O’Reilly and Barnes weren’t so Marshall did succeed Lillee as the Greatest Pacer Ever.

Anyway, Marshall being a better bowler than Barnes was and has never been a unanimous decision either.

 

[kyear2]

Lillee and Marshall were both fast bowlers. O’Reilly and Barnes weren’t so Marshall did succeed Lillee as the Greatest Pacer Ever.

Anyway, Marshall being a better bowler than Barnes was and has never been a unanimous decision either.

True, and they do open the Wisden AT attack together.

@peterhrt was there any narrative ever released with regards to that team?

And merry Christmas to you Sir.

 

[kyear2]

Lillee and Marshall were both fast bowlers. O’Reilly and Barnes weren’t so Marshall did succeed Lillee as the Greatest Pacer Ever.

Anyway, Marshall being a better bowler than Barnes was and has never been a unanimous decision either.

Pretty sure Warne was seen as surpassing O'Reilly as the greatest spinner by many though.

Barnes does kinda float in the in-between ether though.

 

[peterhrt]

True, and they do open the Wisden AT attack together.

@peterhrt was there any narrative ever released with regards to that team?

And merry Christmas to you Sir.

Thank you. Season's greetings.

The Wisden team was picked in 2013 to mark the 150th anniversary of the Almanack. The eleven chosen covered the entire period, which was probably deliberate, and were drawn from five different countries: Grace, Hobbs, Bradman*, Tendulkar, Viv Richards, Sobers, Knott+, Wasim Akram, Marshall, Warne, Barnes.

In response, the Australian website, The Roar, chose the following 2nd XI to oppose them: Gavaskar, Barry Richards, Headley, Hammond, Graeme Pollock, Kallis, Gilchrist+, Imran, Hadlee, Lillee, Muralitharan.

No Hutton, Lara or McGrath in either side.

 

[DrWolverine]

Barry Richards
George Headley
Graeme Pollock

Interesting

 

[sayon basak]

Barry Richards
George Headley
Graeme Pollock

Interesting

Nothing surprising. They were (and are/should be) rated very highly. Headley and Pollock even had meaningful test career.

 

[Johan]

Headley has 10 test hundreds

 

[sayon basak]

Headley has 10 test hundreds

And the second best conversion rate ever (66.67%; only second to Bradman's 69.04%)

 

[kyear2]

Headley has 10 test hundreds

In 19 tests where he was the only tests standard batsman on his team.

He was one vote away from making the Cricinfo all time team as well.

 

[kyear2]

Thank you. Season's greetings.

The Wisden team was picked in 2013 to mark the 150th anniversary of the Almanack. The eleven chosen covered the entire period, which was probably deliberate, and were drawn from five different countries: Grace, Hobbs, Bradman*, Tendulkar, Viv Richards, Sobers, Knott+, Wasim Akram, Marshall, Warne, Barnes.

In response, the Australian website, The Roar, chose the following 2nd XI to oppose them: Gavaskar, Barry Richards, Headley, Hammond, Graeme Pollock, Kallis, Gilchrist+, Imran, Hadlee, Lillee, Muralitharan.

No Hutton, Lara or McGrath in either side.

https://www.theroar.com.au/2020/09/13/picking-an-all-time-test-xi-using-wisdens-cricketers-of-the-century-as-a-guide/

Not the article you referenced, but one I found looking for that one.

A few interesting tibbits in the article though, this one I particularly found interesting



And also Don related, that how he's normally seen as the automatic choice for captain in such XI's, myself included, as the best player. But reminders of how petty and wrong he could be as a selector and personality?

When one digs into it there really isn't an obvious choice.

Bradman wasn't exactly Mr Sunshine and had his personality quirks.
Hutton was too defensive in his tactics
Richards was seen as somewhat of a dictator
Imran doesn't make most teams, and he too was deemed a dictator by some.
Sobers was somewhat perceived to be a disengaged, if sporting one. But wouldn't be instilling discipline nor setting an example.

Read an article once after the Cricinfo effort suggesting that Warne would be the ideal candidate for captain.

Now not sure how much motivating this team would require, and tactically, guys like Marshall and Warne at least used to somewhat set their own fields. But yeah, would still be required, and probably most required along with bowling changes etc.

Probably not the best place to post or discuss this, but interesting none the less, and will likely move it to an appropriate thread.

 

[peterhrt]

https://www.theroar.com.au/2020/09/13/picking-an-all-time-test-xi-using-wisdens-cricketers-of-the-century-as-a-guide/

Not the article you referenced, but one I found looking for that one.

A few interesting tibbits in the article though, this one I particularly found interesting

View attachment 43705

And also Don related, that how he's normally seen as the automatic choice for captain in such XI's, myself included, as the best player. But reminders of how petty and wrong he could be as a selector and personality?

When one digs into it there really isn't an obvious choice.

Bradman wasn't exactly Mr Sunshine and had his personality quirks.
Hutton was too defensive in his tactics
Richards was seen as somewhat of a dictator
Imran doesn't make most teams, and he too was deemed a dictator by some.
Sobers was somewhat perceived to be a disengaged, if sporting one. But wouldn't be instilling discipline nor setting an example.

Read an article once after the Cricinfo effort suggesting that Warne would be the ideal candidate for captain.

Now not sure how much motivating this team would require, and tactically, guys like Marshall and Warne at least used to somewhat set their own fields. But yeah, would still be required, and probably most required along with bowling changes etc.

Probably not the best place to post or discuss this, but interesting none the less, and will likely move it to an appropriate thread.

After moving to South Australia Bradman found out how old Grimmett really was - approaching his 45th birthday at the start of the 1936-37 series. Bradman wasn't popular with all his teammates. Neither was Warne. Alan Fairfax said that Bradman, although an astute tactician, was too inward-looking and single-minded to deal sensitively with the welfare of his charges. Noble was widely considered the best Australian captain before Benaud.

 

[kyear2]

After moving to South Australia Bradman found out how old Grimmett really was - approaching his 45th birthday at the start of the 1936-37 series. Bradman wasn't popular with all his teammates. Neither was Warne. Alan Fairfax said that Bradman, although an astute tactician, was too inward-looking and single-minded to deal sensitively with the welfare of his charges. Noble was widely considered the best Australian captain before Benaud.

Yeah, wasn't suggesting Warne was universally liked or respected.

I imagine you think that Bradman is the ideal captain for such a squad?

 

[peterhrt]

I imagine you think that Bradman is the ideal captain for such a squad?

He would be fine as captain. Better cricket brain than Grace.

It was said that Viv Richards became so obsessed with extending West Indies' unbeaten series record under his leadership that he neglected his batting during the last three years.

Hobbs (and Rhodes) effectively captained England on the field while an amateur was nominally in charge. The Three Ws did the same for West Indies during the 1950s. It was claimed that Imran took quite a lot of tactical advice from Javed Miandad, which wasn't necessarily a weakness.

 

[capt_Luffy]

He would be fine as captain. Better cricket brain than Grace.

It was said that Viv Richards became so obsessed with extending West Indies' unbeaten series record under his leadership that he neglected his batting during the last three years.

Hobbs (and Rhodes) effectively captained England on the field while an amateur was nominally in charge. The Three Ws did the same for West Indies during the 1950s. It was claimed that Imran took quite a lot of tactical advice from Javed Miandad, which wasn't necessarily a weakness.

I forgot that Worrell was captain only for 15 matches.....

Who would you consider the 5 Greatest Captains?

 

[DrWolverine]

Border. Imran. Ranatunga.
They had a huge impact on their team.

 

[peterhrt]

Who would you consider the 5 Greatest Captains?

CB Fry once said: "Of course I was a good captain. I had good bowlers."

How much difference a captain makes is open to debate. A bad one can mess things up in a big way. The difference between a good captain and a competent one is not always clear. Brearley was an effective psychologist in a tight game, convincing his own team and the opposition that he was in control of events when he wasn't. Mark Taylor was master of proving the pundits wrong, ignoring their advice and still coming out on top.

Although he never officially captained his country, Eddie Barlow did more than anyone to convince South Africa to take a more positive approach and it paid off. At first-class level he was outstanding. Worrell and Ranatunga were influential leaders in their country's cricket history.

These days it is difficult to tell how much influence the captain has relative to the coach.

 

[DrWolverine]

Brearley was an effective psychologist in a tight game, convincing his own team and the opposition that he was in control of events when he wasn't.

I was fascinated with articles about his captaincy but have barely read anything about him in recent times.

 

[Coronis]

I think Bradman was always considered a good tactician on field but off field was a dickhead. In a hypothetical ATG scenario I think a good tactician would be very important as you’d think players would need less motivation than usual in order to perform at their best in such high level competition.

 

[sayon basak]

Who would you consider the 5 Greatest Captains?

Dhoni
Mashrafe
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Rest.