Name an overrated and an underrated cricketer

[thierry henry]

Yeah I'm completely on board with that. Consistency would keep him out of that conversation...but then again, how many of the ATGs have his clutch innings and moments? Not all of them.

I mean he's not even in the same stratosphere as Kallis, but Kallis has nothing to even go near rivalling Headingley. So there's got to be some sort of proviso made for Stokes. Even now, he's not trying to be Sobers, and the role he played from 2022 was perfect for a team at its peak...but they need more now and he probably doesn't have it.

Great moments sure (but if you get to play about 100 Ashes tests and all of them are touted as the most important cricket ever played, it becomes a lot easier to have "iconic moments") but overall not the same calibre of player as the top all-rounders. A passable middle order bat (averaging 35 is averaging 35) and a 2 wickets per test seamer. The guys he's in competition with are mostly clearly superior in their main discipline, or if he's up against the likes of Flintoff or Cairns (30-something average middle order boshers) they were closer to front line bowlers.

Anyway, no need to derail the thread with Stokes critique.

 

[SteveNZ]

I wouldn't call it derailing, I'm sure there'd be a lot of people who would have Stokes as overrated and a few who'd argue it fervently.

I was looking at a list of 90s ODI/Test cricketers for NZ and honestly you could make a case for 90% of them that they were overrated. 5% weren't rated at all, then you have the outliers like Crowe and Jones, maybe Twose, Morrison and Smith wouldn't fit, either.

 

[Line and Length]

If we are doing outside CW:

Overrated: Dennis Lillee
Underrated: Richard Hadlee

I always felt Hadlee was held universally in high regard and that, on CW, Lillee is underrated.

 

[Fuller Pilch]

I wouldn't call it derailing, I'm sure there'd be a lot of people who would have Stokes as overrated and a few who'd argue it fervently.

I was looking at a list of 90s ODI/Test cricketers for NZ and honestly you could make a case for 90% of them that they were overrated. 5% weren't rated at all, then you have the outliers like Crowe and Jones, maybe Twose, Morrison and Smith wouldn't fit, either.

Shame that Nash, Doull, and O'Connor had so many injuries (and obviously Cairns in the 90s).

In terms of ODIs, Harris and Larsen were world class.

 

[Starfighter]

Craig Spearman another one - had a reputation as an ODI force but averaged 18 in 50 matches.

Umm, does anyone think this?

 

[thierry henry]

Shame that Nash, Doull, and O'Connor had so many injuries (and obviously Cairns in the 90s).

In terms of ODIs, Harris and Larsen were world class.

I think there's a good argument for Harris being a bit overrated in ODIs...not a fast scorer, not a prolific scorer (mediocre average and strike rate), not a good bowling average...decent economy rate but nothing special for his era. He conceded runs at 4.3RPO while only scoring them at about 4RPO....

A cult hero though which is always a good base for ending up overrated

 

[thierry henry]

I always felt Hadlee was held universally in high regard and that, on CW, Lillee is underrated.

I think many people coming from outside CW would say this - which is the flipside of the CW view that Hadlee is underrated and Lillee overrated "in the outside world".

I think roughly why this is, is because while Hadlee and Lillee were roughly the same age, Lillee developed a reputation in the 70s and early 80s as an ATG before Hadlee did. Hadlee himself openly looked up to Lillee and tried to emulate him, and ended up hitting his own career peak some years after him. Understandably therefore, I think those who watched cricket during the 70s and 80s may have developed a view of Lillee/Hadlee as being sort of "master and apprentice".

CWers (many of whom would not have watched them at the time) now look back at the respective numbers of the two and (understandably imo) reach the view that Hadlee was better, which may not have been how it seemed at the time.

Anyway, that's my crude summary of why I think we end up with these two schools of thought.

 

[Line and Length]

I think many people coming from outside CW would say this - which is the flipside of the CW view that Hadlee is underrated and Lillee overrated "in the outside world".

I think roughly why this is, is because while Hadlee and Lillee were roughly the same age, Lillee developed a reputation in the 70s and early 80s as an ATG before Hadlee did. Hadlee himself openly looked up to Lillee and tried to emulate him, and ended up hitting his own career peak some years after him. Understandably therefore, I think those who watched cricket during the 70s and 80s may have developed a view of Lillee/Hadlee as being sort of "master and apprentice".

CWers (many of whom would not have watched them at the time) now look back at the respective numbers of the two and (understandably imo) reach the view that Hadlee was better, which may not have been how it seemed at the time.

Anyway, that's my crude summary of why I think we end up with these two schools of thought.

Having seen both I can say both are ATGs. Lillee was the more charismatic and threatening of the two while Hadlee produced some great performances over his entire career. The perception of Lillee (by some) is that he avoided the SC while it was debilitating injuries that prevented him playing there more.

 

[ankitj]

??

Almost none of them were rated as they weren't very good

Not even Chris Harris?

 

[SteveNZ]

Umm, does anyone think this?

Gloucestershire did, and he did very well there. But yeah absolutely back in the day, Spearman had a reputation of sorts.

 

[Coronis]

Overrated: Victor Trumper

Underrated: Clem Hill

Obvious one.

 

[Fuller Pilch]

Not even Chris Harris?

World class in ODIs as were Twose, Larsen, and Astle but I was referring to tests

 

[Fuller Pilch]

@OverratedSanity

Why the laughs? Which of those 4 players was not a world class ODI player?

 

[Coronis]

Overrated: Abdul Qadir
Underrated; Iqbal Qasim

 

[Swamp Witch Hattie]

If we are doing outside CW:

Overrated: Dennis Lillee
Underrated: Richard Hadlee

Luffy, I'm going to take two completely random people (presumably outside CW) to illustrate how one of them overrates Lillee while the other one underrates Hadlee:

Dennis Lillee is overrated by Richard Hadlee because Hadlee regards Lillee (his idol) as the best ever (despite recognising that Lillee has been statistically surpassed).

from p. 95 of Hadlee's 1989 autobiography, "Rhythm and Swing":

"Lillee I unhesitatingly tag the greatest there's been."

Richard Hadlee is underrated by Dennis Lillee:

from p. 271 of Lillee's 2003 autobiography, "Menace: The Autobiography":



(I think he messed up putting Ambrose in there as Ambrose was after Lillee's time)

He goes on to say, on p. 273:



(so he's certainly not rubbishing the man)

He then evaluates Marshall based on his time with him:

from p. 273:



To be fair, I think this is Lillee's rating based on his career overlap with Hadlee, i.e. before Hadlee was at his very best. He doesn't seem to do an overall rating of Hadlee though (i.e. including beyond his time with him although "Without doubt, he was one of the greatest bowlers of all time." might hint at that). This is a bit strange as he does do this for Marshall (putting him equal with Ambrose). He puts Marshall in the category of "modern" fast bowler but Marshall played Test cricket for just 13 months after Hadlee retired (Marshall did start about 5 years 10 months after Hadlee though):

from pp. 274 and 275:

 

[mr_mister]

Gloucestershire did, and he did very well there. But yeah absolutely back in the day, Spearman had a reputation of sorts.

I admit I'm basing this all from wiki, but it seems he stunk it up in international cricket in the 90s, then killed it in domestic cricket in the 2000s for Gloucestershire. Broke WG Graces record for highest individual score for them with 341

 

[Coronis]

Luffy, I'm going to take two completely random people (presumably outside CW) to illustrate how one of them overrates Lillee while the other one underrates Hadlee:

Dennis Lillee is overrated by Richard Hadlee because Hadlee regards Lillee (his idol) as the best ever (despite recognising that Lillee has been statistically surpassed).

from p. 95 of Hadlee's 1989 autobiography, "Rhythm and Swing":

"Lillee I unhesitatingly tag the greatest there's been."

Richard Hadlee is underrated by Dennis Lillee:

from p. 271 of Lillee's 2003 autobiography, "Menace: The Autobiography":

View attachment 43620

(I think he messed up putting Ambrose in there as Ambrose was after Lillee's time)

He goes on to say, on p. 273:

View attachment 43621

(so he's certainly not rubbishing the man)

He then evaluates Marshall based on his time with him:

from p. 273:

View attachment 43622

To be fair, I think this is Lillee's rating based on his career overlap with Hadlee, i.e. before Hadlee was at his very best. He doesn't seem to do an overall rating of Hadlee though (i.e. including beyond his time with him although "Without doubt, he was one of the greatest bowlers of all time." might hint at that). This is a bit strange as he does do this for Marshall (putting him equal with Ambrose). He puts Marshall in the category of "modern" fast bowler but Marshall played Test cricket for just 13 months after Hadlee retired (Marshall did start about 5 years 10 months after Hadlee though):

from pp. 274 and 275:

View attachment 43623

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Does he say anything about McGrath after he talks about Marshall, Ambrose and Wasim?

re: Lillee and Ambrose, the year Ambrose first toured England (88) Lillee was playing his final FC cricket there. Wouldn’t surprise me if he was there just on that.

 

[Swamp Witch Hattie]

Does he say anything about McGrath after he talks about Marshall, Ambrose and Wasim?

re: Lillee and Ambrose, the year Ambrose first toured England (88) Lillee was playing his final FC cricket there. Wouldn’t surprise me if he was there just on that.

"re: Lillee and Ambrose, the year Ambrose first toured England (88) Lillee was playing his final FC cricket there. Wouldn’t surprise me if he was there just on that."

Thanks! I'll look into that!

"Does he say anything about McGrath after he talks about Marshall, Ambrose and Wasim?"

Yes (but not flaming much!!!):

 

[Swamp Witch Hattie]

 

[capt_Luffy]

"re: Lillee and Ambrose, the year Ambrose first toured England (88) Lillee was playing his final FC cricket there. Wouldn’t surprise me if he was there just on that."

Thanks! I'll look into that!

"Does he say anything about McGrath after he talks about Marshall, Ambrose and Wasim?"

Yes (but not flaming much!!!):

View attachment 43631
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View attachment 43634
View attachment 43635
View attachment 43636
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View attachment 43640

Now on Roberts, Thomson, Snow, Kapil, Willis and Holding please!!