Dennis Lillee vs Fred Trueman

[Swamp Witch Hattie]

Bowlers who forced batsmen to retire hurt most often in Tests between 1 October 1974 and 10 March 1995. Source: Letting RIP by Simon Wilde. Hadlee had his share of victims - the same number as Lillee and Thomson put together.

7 - Marshall
6 - Croft, Walsh, Willis
5 - Hadlee, Roberts
4 - McDermott
3 - Botham, Garner, Thomson
2 - Alderman, Ambrose, Azeem Hafeez, Sylvester Clarke, Winston Davis, Holding, Lillee, Mohsin Kamal, Pascoe
1 - Mohinder Amarnath, Angel, Winston Benjamin, Bishop, Collinge, Dilley, Donald, Holder, Imran, Kapil Dev, Lawson, Peter Lever, Chris Lewis, Malcolm, Morrison, Moseley, Rumesh Ratnayake, Bruce Reid, Sarfraz Nawaz, Srinath, Waqar, Wasim Akram

I've just found an interesting pdf from 2020 on this. It has some different numbers from your post, Peter, no doubt in part because it includes agony inflicted prior to 1 October 1974 and also after 10 March 1995 (to 2020):

from http://www.sportstats.com.au/articles/retiringhurt.pdf (which I've downloaded and saved!):

 

[Coronis]

I've just found an interesting pdf from 2020 on this. It has some different numbers from your post, Peter, no doubt in part because it includes agony inflicted prior to 1 October 1974 and also after 10 March 1995 (to 2020):

from http://www.sportstats.com.au/articles/retiringhurt.pdf (which I've downloaded and saved!):

View attachment 43582

lol Croft.

I’m curious as to when those occurred for Hadlee - iirc he started as a bit of a tearaway like some others, but sacrificed some pace for control.

 

[Swamp Witch Hattie]

To start off I'm not questioning him, I have him 3rd among fast bowlers.
What I'm asking is why isn't that nearly a popular option. That's it.

Your first two reasons I can go with, don't get the 3rd.

But no, not questioning Hadlee.

"Hadlee was a serious and calculating individual: strike three."

from https://www.cricketcountry.com/arti...enomenon-in-the-pantheon-of-the-greats-28541/:



Hadlee was also often perceived as being obsessed with his personal stats and being selfish which does not always make one the most likable individual. And if someone is not as well-liked and is regarded as being overly serious, they might not be rated fairly (assessment is not always based just on thoughts but also on feelings).

 

[Coronis]

"Hadlee was a serious and calculating individual: strike three."

from https://www.cricketcountry.com/arti...enomenon-in-the-pantheon-of-the-greats-28541/:

View attachment 43583

Hadlee was also often perceived as being obsessed with his personal stats and being selfish which does not always make one the most likable individual. And if someone is not as well-liked and is regarded as being overly serious, they might not be rated fairly (assessment is not always based just on thoughts but also on feelings).

Nice to know I’ve had similar thoughts about myself as an ATG has about themselves.

 

[Swamp Witch Hattie]

To start off I'm not questioning him, I have him 3rd among fast bowlers.
What I'm asking is why isn't that nearly a popular option. That's it.

Your first two reasons I can go with, don't get the 3rd.

But no, not questioning Hadlee.

Batsmen might also give a bowler a superior rating because of the fear that bowler induces which doesn't necessarily translate into the bowler being that much more effective at getting the batsman out. Conversely, they might downgrade a bowler because that bowler does not induce that fear for life and limb (although, as we have seen, Hadlee was quite good at meting out punishment albeit, at a less than express pace).

 

[kyear2]

"Hadlee was a serious and calculating individual: strike three."

from https://www.cricketcountry.com/arti...enomenon-in-the-pantheon-of-the-greats-28541/:

View attachment 43583

Hadlee was also often perceived as being obsessed with his personal stats and being selfish which does not always make one the most likable individual. And if someone is not as well-liked and is regarded as being overly serious, they might not be rated fairly (assessment is not always based just on thoughts but also on feelings).

That I've read.

Don't see how that's a bad thing as a bowler though, batsman, sure. But not bowler.

 

[Swamp Witch Hattie]

That I've read.

Don't see how that's a bad thing as a bowler though, batsman, sure. But not bowler.

Oh, are you talking about how a selfish batsman might negatively affect team performance but that is less likely to happen if the bowler is selfish? I was just saying that those who see Hadlee as being selfish might rate him more harshly as Hadlee would be less likable to them, i.e. their subjective feelings might affect their objective judgement.

 

[Coronis]

A selfish bowler who either was captain or had the ear of the captain could definitely be a detriment to his team imo. Convicing him to let him bowl or overbowling him when it’s clearly not advantageous.

 

[Patience and Accuracy+Gut]

Not much between the two. There isn’t much at all footage of Trueman bowling at his fastest. That probably hinders his rating somewhat.

Both him and Lillee were expectional to adapt bowling at around medium pace later in their careers and still be the best in the world.

 

[kyear2]

They both bear the perception of being home bullies and not proving themselves away from favorable conditions. Trueman, in retrospect was at least better at home.

 

[capt_Luffy]

Lillee proved himself in England at least, can't say the same for Freddie in Australia.....

 

[kyear2]

Lillee proved himself in England at least, can't say the same for Freddie in Australia.....

That too is true.

 

[Bolo.]

A selfish bowler who either was captain or had the ear of the captain could definitely be a detriment to his team imo. Convicing him to let him bowl or overbowling him when it’s clearly not advantageous.

Underbowling probably more so.

 

[sayon basak]

Lillee proved himself in England at least, can't say the same for Freddie in Australia.....

This.

 

[DrWolverine]

Trueman was great in England.

Lillee was great in Australia and England.

 

[Johan]

Lillee proved himself in England at least, can't say the same for Freddie in Australia.....

iirc if you equalize the bowling average of Trueman's games in Australia to the overall average of Lillee's games in Australia, ofcourse, after subtracting their own wickets/record, Trueman's average falls to 23-24, don't think that's a failure but yeah not as good as Lillee in England.

 

[capt_Luffy]

iirc if you equalize the bowling average of Trueman's games in Australia to the overall average of Lillee's games in Australia, ofcourse, after subtracting their own wickets/record, Trueman's average falls to 23-24, don't think that's a failure but yeah not as good as Lillee in England.

I just think Trueman was good in one of his Australian tour and alright in the other; but overall lacks any series close to ATG away. That's pretty much it. I have all the same problems with Lillee as well, just that he has his English record over Freddie.

 

[Johan]

I just think Trueman was good in one of his Australian tour and alright in the other; but overall lacks any series close to ATG away. That's pretty much it. I have all the same problems with Lillee as well, just that he has his English record over Freddie.

Definitely, Lillee gets superior record in his ashes rival's home while Trueman gets a superior home record, Lillee isn't the type of bowler where his away record would get him a bunch of points imo, moreso than Fiery Fred tho.

 

[Coronis]

Underbowling probably more so.

True, to protect their average

 

[peterhrt]

I've just found an interesting pdf from 2020 on this. It has some different numbers from your post, Peter, no doubt in part because it includes agony inflicted prior to 1 October 1974 and also after 10 March 1995 (to 2020):

from http://www.sportstats.com.au/articles/retiringhurt.pdf (which I've downloaded and saved!):

View attachment 43582

Interesting thanks. Hall could apparently keep up his pace for long periods. No helmets then of course.