Brian Lara vs Ricky Ponting

[honestbharani]

@honestbharani are Lara and Sachin close?

Lara over Sachin by a close yet clear margin in tests as batsmen.

 

[DrWolverine]

@honestbharani are Lara and Sachin close?

It depends

For me there is a not much difference between Top 2-15 batsmen.

 

[subshakerz]

It depends

For me there is a not much difference between Top 2-15 batsmen.

Think it's slightly easier to differentiate the top bats then bowlers.

 

[Johan]

You'd be correct, tho I could swap Sobers and Richards.

Goooood.

 

[kyear2]

Dude, it's fine if you think Imran is a cheat.

The difference is that when I knock Lara, Ambrose, Kallis, etc my critique is very normally simple, consistent and straightforward. What you don't like is me pounding it again and again to the extent where it becomes an established point on CW regarding that cricketer, when even you have begrudgingly admitted to incorproate these points yourself, like in your upgrading of Steyn over Ambrose.

The problem with you and Imran is your mutating critiques with countless threads directly or indirectly trying to downplay him, your statements about his batting, bowling and captaincy are by your own admission just now bad faith, since you just rate him less based on thinking he is a cheat not all the rest of the excuses you bring.

You should be honest with your reasons. Nobody should take a word you say about Imran with a hint of seriousness, and frankly it compromises the integrity of your other positions and just makes you look foolish.

Ok, I want this part to be exceptionally clear. It's not that I think he was a cheat, he did cheat. Not only did he ball tamper to a point above and beyond what's remotely acceptable, he taught his proteges as well.

Everyone knows it and everyone ignores it. I showed a vid just the other day of Raja acknowledging just that and why they went along with it.

You love to take credit for stupid ****, I've always had Steyn and Ambrose close and Steyn just ahead die to s/r.

Your arguments are neither consistent nor straight forward and what I find hilarious is that you think they've become established points.

The dichotomy is that you believe you can "pound" your points on the current India team, Lara, Kallis and Ambrose, but you think I look silly because I do the same to Imran?

Your arguments are the definition of bad faith because its all to a goal. You started the Ambrose agenda just before the last voting for rankings of bowlers, just so many would vote Imran higher in said exercise.
The Kallis agenda has been consistent again, because you see him as a modern rival to again, Imran as an all rounder. Instead of just pushing you guys, which you do btw, you also see the need to try to lower the competitors. The bowlers (Steyn and Ambrose) and the all rounder (Kallis) most directly seen as his rivals. You do the same with Tendulkar and Lara.

The reason you get away with it to an extent, is that they are next to no South Africa's and West Indians to come to their defence and plenty of the Imran faithful to come to yours. This no longer, and yes it used to, bother me.

And with regards to my arguments?

His away performances are not up to par for the era. Period. They do not remotely compare to Hadlee's, nor Marshall's. Damn, they aren't as good as Holding's. He took advantage of "favorable" conditions at home and the green light he apparently got there.

The batting, and yes, I acknowledge that I don't rate lower order batting as highly as most do here, and as a result I probably under rate a tad, is none the less incredibly soft. Not only is his average in no way representative of his output, it's also heavily skewed towards the back end of his career, and that doesn't include the fact that it's inflated by most of his hundreds coming in some icy down hill skiing conditions. I will never say that all were, there were a couple that were serious match saving efforts. But I also give credit for that, and not only do I include him in my absolute top tier of ATG's, but in the top 10.

With regards to the captaincy, I've seen a forum members rate him as top 5 in that regard, that's crazy. I have read too many places that he wasn't that tactically astute and it was Miandad that did most of that stuff, to which you once acknowledged, saying it was delegating.
And for some reason you think that level of criticism is limited to just him, I say the same about Lloyd, Viv, Ponting etc. The difference being though that they took their teams to higher heights. Lloyd took a team that was embarrassed in '75, to one a decade later, was the Greatest of All Time. So while neither were great tactical guys, one accomplished more.
But neither were "great" captains if we're looking at leadership, tactical nous and overall record / winning.

So while you think it's personal, the reasons are there. And the ridiculous part is that you're always trying to diminish other's accomplishments, and see no issue with it, but one man for you can't be looked at.

And no, it's not all bad. He was an incredibly skilled bowler, and the best lower order batsman (if we're talking 8 and below) ever, and certainly among the ATG bowlers. Definitely among the Pantheon of the game.

But you only want to acknowledge half of it.

 

[kyear2]

No, what you post is not normal, it's annoying and gets old quite frankly. Here are a few examples using only Lara. There's more concerning other players. Somebody says Lara was an exceptional player of spin, but here you come with the nonsense about Lara not doing well vs flatter spin bowlers. In this very thread you want to drop Lara to some 2nd tier bs because he averages 48 away. You remember the other day when out of the blue you posted a clip of Lara vs of all people Devon Malcolm to show he was uncomfortable vs pace. For goodness sake everyone and their mother has already acknowledged and accepted that he was but for whatever reason you just keep beating that dead horse. And being uncomfortable doesn't take away from the fact that Lara still put the willow and make runs vs real pace from time to time.

If Kyear2 is getting under your skin for his take on Imran, you are no different in the way you rub me and I assume others in your takes on: Kallis, Lara, Ambrose, Ashwin, you tried with Marshall, etc

Exactly this.

He just wants to dish it out.

 

[PlayerComparisons]

Imran time

 

[kyear2]

It's annoying only to fanboys who treat their favorite as sacred and beyond critique.

Otherwise, you should welcome new info.

Lara not dominating flatter spinners isn't BS, he admitted it himself several times. I didn't call it a weakness per se.

As for effective ness versus quality pace, you basically were shown the issues with your raw average approach, let not rehash it.


The occasional rub makes a more entertaining forum. But at least we don't need to hide our real opinions.

....

 

[kyear2]

Aren't you doing the same regarding Imran?? I'll answer that for you, yes you are. So kindly step down from your high horse....

The lack of self awareness though.

 

[kyear2]

It depends

For me there is a not much difference between Top 2-15 batsmen.

I think that if you've watched cricket and can't see a difference between Sachin / Lara and. Kallis / Sangakkara, then....

It's where and vs who did they score. Who's capable of taking a game on their shoulders and winning it, including escalating the innings as required. Who forces change of tactics, fields and rotations vs who just accumulated. Who could take on the best and dominate them.

 

[Pap Finn Keighl]

Tests
Lara >> Ponting
ODIS
Lara > Ponting

 

[subshakerz]

Ok, I want this part to be exceptionally clear. It's not that I think he was a cheat, he did cheat. Not only did he ball tamper to a point above and beyond what's remotely acceptable, he taught his proteges as well.

Everyone knows it and everyone ignores it. I showed a vid just the other day of Raja acknowledging just that and why they went along with it.

You love to take credit for stupid ****, I've always had Steyn and Ambrose close and Steyn just ahead die to s/r.

Your arguments are neither consistent nor straight forward and what I find hilarious is that you think they've become established points.

The dichotomy is that you believe you can "pound" your points on the current India team, Lara, Kallis and Ambrose, but you think I look silly because I do the same to Imran?

Your arguments are the definition of bad faith because its all to a goal. You started the Ambrose agenda just before the last voting for rankings of bowlers, just so many would vote Imran higher in said exercise.
The Kallis agenda has been consistent again, because you see him as a modern rival to again, Imran as an all rounder. Instead of just pushing you guys, which you do btw, you also see the need to try to lower the competitors. The bowlers (Steyn and Ambrose) and the all rounder (Kallis) most directly seen as his rivals. You do the same with Tendulkar and Lara.

The reason you get away with it to an extent, is that they are next to no South Africa's and West Indians to come to their defence and plenty of the Imran faithful to come to yours. This no longer, and yes it used to, bother me.

And with regards to my arguments?

His away performances are not up to par for the era. Period. They do not remotely compare to Hadlee's, nor Marshall's. Damn, they aren't as good as Holding's. He took advantage of "favorable" conditions at home and the green light he apparently got there.

The batting, and yes, I acknowledge that I don't rate lower order batting as highly as most do here, and as a result I probably under rate a tad, is none the less incredibly soft. Not only is his average in no way representative of his output, it's also heavily skewed towards the back end of his career, and that doesn't include the fact that it's inflated by most of his hundreds coming in some icy down hill skiing conditions. I will never say that all were, there were a couple that were serious match saving efforts. But I also give credit for that, and not only do I include him in my absolute top tier of ATG's, but in the top 10.

With regards to the captaincy, I've seen a forum members rate him as top 5 in that regard, that's crazy. I have read too many places that he wasn't that tactically astute and it was Miandad that did most of that stuff, to which you once acknowledged, saying it was delegating.
And for some reason you think that level of criticism is limited to just him, I say the same about Lloyd, Viv, Ponting etc. The difference being though that they took their teams to higher heights. Lloyd took a team that was embarrassed in '75, to one a decade later, was the Greatest of All Time. So while neither were great tactical guys, one accomplished more.
But neither were "great" captains if we're looking at leadership, tactical nous and overall record / winning.

So while you think it's personal, the reasons are there. And the ridiculous part is that you're always trying to diminish other's accomplishments, and see no issue with it, but one man for you can't be looked at.

And no, it's not all bad. He was an incredibly skilled bowler, and the best lower order batsman (if we're talking 8 and below) ever, and certainly among the ATG bowlers. Definitely among the Pantheon of the game.

But you only want to acknowledge half of it.

Dude why should anyone reply to this silly long thesis when you admit why your really downgrade Imran and it's not on what you argue for his bowling record, batting or captaincy. You think he is a cheat and therefore you are are going to change the goalposts and metrics to adjust.

You admitted you are full of it. Congrats.

 

[kyear2]

Dude why should anyone reply to this silly long thesis when you admit why your really downgrade Imran and it's not on what you argue for his bowling record, batting or captaincy. You think he is a cheat and therefore you are are going to change the goalposts and metrics to adjust.

You admitted you are full of it. Congrats.

You obviously see what you want to and try to block out the rest.

Both things can be true, and cheating contributed to his home success. But that doesn't make any of the other criticisms less relevant.

You're the master of seeing and creating the faults of others and in your own words willing to keep pounding them on them. Goes both ways.

 

[subshakerz]

You obviously see what you want to and try to block out the rest.

Both things can be true, and cheating contributed to his home success. But that doesn't make any of the other criticisms less relevant.

You're the master of seeing and creating the faults of others and in your own words willing to keep pounding them on them. Goes both ways.

Nah bro, you have been caught dead to rights.

Anything you say on Imran is essentially a cover for you taking cheat point off him.

Just to check though, how many places would you rank him higher if you didn't deduct cheat points?

 

[kyear2]

Nah bro, you have been caught dead to rights.

Anything you say on Imran is essentially a cover for you taking cheat point off him.

Just to check though, how many places would you rank him higher if you didn't deduct cheat points?

You are hilarious.

Is that how you do things?

But I'm on vacation, so I'll play along.

It's already borne out in his numbers, so no need to subtract anything. And to answer your next question, no I don't rate him purely on his away numbers because then he would be closer to Walsh than Ambrose.
So very honestly, if I were to either rate him on his away numbers alone, or "subtract" cheat / umpiring "points" from his home numbers (which isn't beyond reason), he would be below Donald, Lillee, Wasim, probably Holding and Garner as well.

For me he just wasn't as good a bowler as;
Marshall, McGrath, Hadlee, Steyn, Warne, Murali nor Ambrose. You know what, neither does the forum, because that's where they consistently rate him as well.

It also doesn't impact how I view his batting. Even without the no's (which % was so very much higher at home), and a couple hundreds where earlier declarations would have been in order, it is what it is. The numbers are soft and a little inflated. Doesn't make him not the best lower order batsman in the game. Not nearly Gilchrist level, but for 8, definitely. He definely had some really good and crucial innings, but wasn't nearly as consistent as is projected in some arguments. But he was a lower order guy, so wasn't expected to be.

Now where the extra circulars does impact my judgement, and there are 2 of them, and the 1st would just be a me thing as no one else chooses these teams this way...
Are for AT XI's, and even then it's a coin toss between him, Wasim, Steyn and (really should and deserve to be) Hadlee. At face value he's the 4th best bowler of the 4, easily the best batsman, but again arguably the 3rd best with the old ball, and Hadlee wasn't bad there either. But then the question for me is, unless he's travelling with his home umpires, and the camera isn't looking at him, how good will he be compared to the others. And there his away numbers does comes into play, and they aren't nearly as good as the others. You may disagree, but it's a valid point.
The 2nd is overall ratings. On his overall numbers and at face value, he's top 5 all time... He's the 2nd best all rounder of all time. But there was a reason why, even during his peak there was no one calling him the best, and even in the totality of his era he was rated between 3rd and 4th. Everyone knew, and he and Miandad were docked a little for the home advantages. Then the batting average was never quite aligned with the production, and even then it got a major boost near the end of the career. So yeah, top 10 is a fair spot for me, not good enough for you, but we can all agree to disagree.


But that's basically it, they don't factor into by bowler ratings, if it did, he would be lower. And the reason I do being it up (and will bring it up every time you start you bs), is because you consistently go after his rivals and everyone else with exaggerated nonsense... Specifically of late coming up with various caveats, "did they benefit from...", while no one benefitted more from..... than Imran. Yes Kallis's bowling average may flatter compared to his output, so does Imran's batting average. Yes Ambrose's s/r wasn't the greatest, it was the same as Imran's, but he was also the best in his era and was better away from home.

And just to be sure you see I've answered your question, I don't take off cheat points, and he's exactly where I think he should be. If I deducted cheat points, he would be ranked lower.
And even without the home advantages, he's still not a lock for my XI, because Steyn was a better bowler and could also a master of reverse, Hadlee was just better as well and a good enough bat for 8, and Wasim has the variety, best ever with the old ball (with or without reverse), and too was a clutch bat. So no, not because I dislike him for what ever contrived reason you come up with. Even in our last poll he was tied for 4th among the fast bowling options, and well behind the top 3, it's not just me.

And for the record he was an immensely talented bowler and a more than useful lower order batsman. From the history of the game I have only 5 pacers and 2 (possibly 3) spinners ahead of him. I have him as a top 10 player of all time even taking into account the outside stuff, but you're argument to me is that isn't enough and I'm biased against him. None of those are outside the bounds of accepted ratings and higher than quite a few. So give it a rest.

 

[subshakerz]

On his overall numbers and at face value, he's top 5 all time.

Got my answer.

Agreed.

 

[kyear2]

Got my answer.

Agreed.

Wow that's crazy, yes, ignore all context.

Let's ignore that the batting isn't what it appears and rigged home conditions.

As I said, he's top 10 for me.

 

[subshakerz]

Wow that's crazy, yes, ignore all context.

Let's ignore that the batting isn't what it appears and rigged home conditions.

As I said, he's top 10 for me.

I asked what you rated him without cheat deduction, you gave a typical unasked for long rant so I combed the relevant part out.

 

[kyear2]

I asked what you rated him without cheat deduction, you gave a typical unasked for long rant so I combed the relevant part out.

And I was very particular to answer your question

And just to be sure you see I've answered your question, I don't take off cheat points, and he's exactly where I think he should be. If I deducted cheat points, he would be ranked lower.

That was directly answering your question with regards to bowler rating which was repeated from earlier in the response.

I will attempt though to be extra clear.

7 bowlers rated above him 5 pacers and two spinners), however as an overall player I rate him above all but 3 (Marshall, McGrath and Hadlee) and more or less tied with Warne.

He's behind for me:
Bradman, Sobers, Marshall, Hobbs, McGrath, Hadlee, Tendulkar / Richards

Warne / Imran

All of said names have arguments to be there, so again... If you're asking minus any cheat tax / points where he is, this is it.

 

[The_CricketUmpire]

Dude why should anyone reply to this silly long thesis when you admit why your really downgrade Imran and it's not on what you argue for his bowling record, batting or captaincy. You think he is a cheat and therefore you are are going to change the goalposts and metrics to adjust.

You admitted you are full of it. Congrats.

I always thought Imran was a fine player. Led from the front too, really good captain as well. Great bowler. Handy with the bat too.