Brian Lara vs Ricky Ponting

[sayon basak]

As this way of comparing players is becoming common these days, we should define what close means.

Let's say, two batters rank x and y respectively in an AT batting list (x>y).
then, define closeness, C(x,y)={(x-y)^(1/4)}*{(x/y)^(4/5)}
if C(x,y)<=3, then it's close; otherwise it's not.

Doesn't take any stats into account at all, but still a decent first step to define "close".

In case of Brian Lara and Ponting imo, C(x,y)=3.605>3, so, not close for me.

 

[capt_Luffy]

Since you voted for "close", where do they rank in your list?

I have Lara at 7th
Ponting at 20th

I think it's close here as I came to believe the difference between batsmen at that level is really significantly slimmer than often given credit for. Lara is better now doubt, but probably just enough to still Ponting be close overall.

 

[Red_Ink_Squid]

As this way of comparing players is becoming common these days, we should define what close means.

Let's say, two batters rank x and y respectively in an AT batting list (x>y).
then, define closeness, C(x,y)={(x-y)^(1/4)}*{(x/y)^(4/5)}
if C(x,y)<=3, then it's close; otherwise it's not.

Doesn't take any stats into account at all, but still a decent first step to define "close".

In case of Brian Lara and Ponting imo, C(x,y)=3.605>3, so, not close for me.

Thank you for clearing this up.

 

[The_CricketUmpire]

Lara for me. His ability to score big and "go on with it" once he reached a century is why I have him above Ponting (and Tendulkar for that matter - but only just and that's for another day to talk about).

Ponting is still an all time great but Lara was better. Ponting scored 41 Test 100s, 15 of them were 150+.....thats 36.5%. Pretty good figures. I loved Ponting's pull shots and hook shots plus he wasn't a tall man either.

However, Lara scored 34 Test centuries......19 of them were 150+.....thats 55.8%.....thats seriously impressive. As someone above said....Lara had another gear or two that no one (or very few) had and his ability to score big.....just so good to watch.

 

[capt_Luffy]

As this way of comparing players is becoming common these days, we should define what close means.

Let's say, two batters rank x and y respectively in an AT batting list (x>y).
then, define closeness, C(x,y)={(x-y)^(1/4)}*{(x/y)^(4/5)}
if C(x,y)<=3, then it's close; otherwise it's not.

Doesn't take any stats into account at all, but still a decent first step to define "close".

In case of Brian Lara and Ponting imo, C(x,y)=3.605>3, so, not close for me.

Doesn't think it makes any sense really..... Sorry. Bradman (1) and Hobbs (3) aren't close; but Boycott (40) and Gooch (67) are imo. Better to go off vibes than create an arbitrary function that takes arbitrary rankings into account only.

 

[Coronis]

I think it's close here as I came to believe the difference between batsmen at that level is really significantly slimmer than often given credit for.

Because of the nature of constantly comparing players here, we tend to vastly overstate the relative gaps between them imo.

Truth is you’re probably not going to lose that much by replacing Tendulkar with Ponting for instance. Obviously the vast majority of people would prefer Tendulkar, but in reality the difference is quite small.

Bradman of course is his own anomaly.

 

[subshakerz]

Since you voted for "close", where do they rank in your list?

Lara is no.7, Ponting maybe 12/13.

 

[sayon basak]

Doesn't think it makes any sense really..... Sorry. Bradman (1) and Hobbs (3) aren't close; but Boycott (40) and Gooch (67) are imo. Better to go off vibes than create an arbitrary function that takes arbitrary rankings into account only.

True tbh.

You're underrating Gooch tho.

 

[Betterpolo]

True tbh.

You're underrating Gooch tho.

Who must be the possessor of some sort of record along the lines of most improved player after the age of 35. If, that is, we can invent new categories when one player does something unusual.

 

[Coronis]

Who must be the possessor of some sort of record along the lines of most improved player after the age of 35. If, that is, we can invent new categories when one player does something unusual.

I mean technically Voges. Wasn’t even good enough to make the team before he was 35!

Lloyd’s definitely another name to consider. Few others worthy of a mention.

But Gooch probs takes it.

 

[Betterpolo]

I mean technically Voges. Wasn’t even good enough to make the team before he was 35!

Lloyd’s definitely another name to consider. Few others worthy of a mention.

But Gooch probs takes it.

Just had a look, genuinely didn't realise Lloyd was quite that old when was rampaging around in the early 80s. Great finish to his career and then retired with his team top of the world.

 

[kyear2]

It's taken some time but I am glad it is becoming more common knowledge that Lara was slightly underwhelming away from home. Some more dedicated Lara fans here have tried to conceal or downplay this fact.

I personally think such a record disqualifies him from the top tier category. I want someone in that top tier to average 50 plus away. Lara is first in the second tier list.

Every time you bring this up, so will I.

Thanks, I really think such away records can be disqualifying from the top tier. I want someone in my top tier who averages under 25 away, 24 actually. Especially in an era where everywhere away from home was helpful. But he's the first from the 2nd tier.

I find it crazy that you use two excuses to down grade Lara, ignore both for your guy.

Reason 1, Lara wasn't no. one in his era, and anyone in said top tier should have been the best of said era. Where it's more than arguable than Lara and Sachin were the first to share the spoils of an era, at the very least went back and forth. Your guy was at best the 3rd in his era, 4th if you include the highest overlap of Lillee.

Second, his away record, where he played in the ultimate bowling era for the first half of his career. Compared to your guy who over said career averaged over 25 in 4 of the 5 major countries away from home.

Career wise away from home 25.76 and a s/r of 60. A difference of 6.5 run difference per wicket away from home, and we haven't even started getting into the reasons as yet.

But he's top 5 for you.

Anyways as I said earlier.

Lara amongst the Gods of the game.

Hobbs, Bradman, Hutton, Sobers, Richards, Richards, Tendulkar, Lara, Smith

O'Reilly, Hadlee, Marshall, Ambrose, Warne, Muralitharan, McGrath, Steyn

Hammond, Imran, Kallis, Gilchrist.

Two names very close, but not quite there for various reasons. But yeah, batsmen, bowlers, all round cricketers.

 

[kyear2]

We often hear this about Lara “On his day he was simply the best” and I feel this is true actually

They are at most 4, likely 3 modern batsmen outside of Bradman that this can apply to, Lara is definitely one of them.

And by best, I mean best ever.

 

[kyear2]

Doesn't think it makes any sense really..... Sorry. Bradman (1) and Hobbs (3) aren't close; but Boycott (40) and Gooch (67) are imo. Better to go off vibes than create an arbitrary function that takes arbitrary rankings into account only.

The things is that they probably are, much closer than given credit to these days. Hobbs pre war can be seen as arguably as good / dominant as Bradman, especially taking into account the surfaces.

 

[Coronis]

The things is that they probably are, much closer than given credit to these days. Hobbs pre war can be seen as arguably as good / dominant as Bradman, especially taking into account the surfaces.

Oh goody, this again.

 

[subshakerz]

Every time you bring this up, so will I.

Whatever.

Thanks, I really think such away records can be disqualifying from the top tier.

Got it, so you agree Lara isn't top tier.

I want someone in my top tier who averages under 25 away, 24 actually. Especially in an era where everywhere away from home was helpful. But he's the first from the 2nd tier.

Bowling top tier is pretty different. Anyways, we've gone over it, you will create new equations or metrics but whatever happens Imran can't be top tier.

In my case, the top ten is pretty much the top tier.

I find it crazy that you use two excuses to down grade Lara, ignore both for your guy.

Reason 1, Lara wasn't no. one in his era, and anyone in said top tier should have been the best of said era. Where it's more than arguable than Lara and Sachin were the first to share the spoils of an era, at the very least went back and forth. Your guy was at best the 3rd in his era, 4th if you include the highest overlap of Lillee.

Yes Lara and Sachin were split in the era.

Second, his away record, where he played in the ultimate bowling era for the first half of his career. Compared to your guy who over said career averaged over 25 in 4 of the 5 major countries away from home.

Ok. Mainly due to age. He had an exceptionally long career. So?

Career wise away from home 25.76 and a s/r of 60. A difference of 6.5 run difference per wicket away from home, and we haven't even started getting into the reasons as yet.

But he's top 5 for you.

Sure let's talk about the context for the 100th time.

Anyways as I said earlier.

Lara amongst the Gods of the game.

Hobbs, Bradman, Hutton, Sobers, Richards, Richards, Tendulkar, Lara, Smith

O'Reilly, Hadlee, Marshall, Ambrose, Warne, Muralitharan, McGrath, Steyn

Hammond, Imran, Kallis, Gilchrist.

Two names very close, but not quite there for various reasons. But yeah, batsmen, bowlers, all round cricketers.

Irrelevant.

Anyways you really need to get over this Imran obsession of yours. It's unhealthy and to see it crop up randomly is disconcerting.

 

[sayon basak]

Bowling top tier is pretty different. Anyways, we've gone over it, you will create new equations or metrics but whatever happens Imran can't be top tier.

In my case, the top ten is pretty much the top tier.

Isn't Imran one of the top ten bowlers?

 

[subshakerz]

Isn't Imran one of the top ten bowlers?

Yes. But @kyear2 thinks Imran is a cheat so has had a crusade the past several years to downgrade all his achievements, be it in bowling, batting or captaincy. He can't rate him too highly even as bit by bit it has been pointed out to him the level of what Imran had done. For example, he considers Imran in WI below ATG level and considers Imran in Aus a failure without brining up WSC.

It's really tiresome at this point but anyways.

 

[Sliferxxxx]

Yes. But @kyear2 thinks Imran is a cheat so has had a crusade the past several years to downgrade all his achievements, be it in bowling, batting or captaincy. He can't rate him too highly even as bit by bit it has been pointed out to him the level of what Imran had done. For example, he considers Imran in WI below ATG level and considers Imran in Aus a failure without brining up WSC.

It's really tiresome at this point but anyways.

Bro, you're no different. You've done and said the same about Lara, Ambrose and even tried with Marshall. Don't get me started on how you berate poor Ashwin. And anytime your hypocrisy is pointed out, you bring up some bs about "context" as if that only applies to players you rate. So from here on, if Lara isn't top tier because he averages under 50 away, then neither is Imran for not averaging under 25 away. Good talk....

 

[Coronis]

I mean, I think based on CW’s recent consensuses outside of a few vocal exceptions neither have been recognised as top tier in their primary discipline.

Shouldn’t be controversial takes either way tbh.