England in New Zealand 28 Nov-18 Dec 2024 - 3 Tests

[Molehill]

That sort of logic wouldn't surprise me with this setup.

I hope not as I think Robinson was unfairly overlooked in the summer, he should have been in the backup batsman role instead of Cox.

But he's an idiot for costing himself a test cap with his expired passport. So only himself to blame this time if Bethell gets the nod.

I don't think the passport cost him a spot, he'd have never made it in time for the First Test anyway.

 

[mackembhoy]

I don't think the passport cost him a spot, he'd have never made it in time for the First Test anyway.

It was implied that was the case by Ali Martin of the Guardian. Gone back and looked at his article which is updated and advises differently

 

[Molehill]

It was implied that was the case by Ali Martin of the Guardian. Gone back and looked at his article which is updated and advises differently

Just checked the timelines - Cox broke his thumb on the Sunday, First Test started on the Thursday. No way Robinson ever had a hope of playing, and yet the BBC seemed to report it as such.

 

[straw man]

And Phillips does bat well with the tail. Kane would probably bat well with the tail too. It's not a great argument for deciding the batting order. Speaking of the tail, Southee left Phillips stranded by going for another six in the first innings. For his final tests if there an established batsman at the crease (say like Dean Brownlie on 70 odd at the Gabba) could he try giving them the strike and not get caught on the ****ing boundary? Too late for that discussion?

It's hard to bat well with the tail if the tail doesn't want to bat well with you.

 

[flibbertyjibber]

How much longer will you be in NZ? Sounds like you're having a blast.

And did you go to Pakistan as well, or did I imagine that?

Fly to Wellington today and go home after that one. Its a great holiday. Best ever.

We planned to go but with so much uncertainty over venues we changed to New Zealand instead.

 

[SteveNZ]

And Phillips does bat well with the tail. Kane would probably bat well with the tail too. It's not a great argument for deciding the batting order. Speaking of the tail, Southee left Phillips stranded by going for another six in the first innings. For his final tests if there an established batsman at the crease (say like Dean Brownlie on 70 odd at the Gabba) could he try giving them the strike and not get caught on the ****ing boundary? Too late for that discussion?

Great points. You could look back on my posts for the last decade and see me bemoaning that tailenders refuse to bat for an established batsman. O'Rourke is a rare exception. It gives me the shits.

GP batting well with the tail might be true but it's such a lazy, unintelligent reason. Number 6s bat with the tail, too. GP is a far better bat than Blundell therefore, in the best interest of the side, should bat higher to maximise his run output.

Dylan Cleaver made a great point in his sub stack (which every NZ fan should subscribe to,it's brilliant) that GP's all round talent is being underutilized. His Test bowling average is 28 but bowled 9 overs in the first Test, and we're likely going to add Santner in Wellington and again dilute his influence. Bashir bowled 32 overs when his side won the toss and bowled. One of our best talents is being used as a tail shielding batsman and part time spinner. I also feel like he goes silly in the field when he isn't allowed to have an influence on the game - he got carried away and did it in the Australian T20s last season and he did it this week. That cat on a hot tin roof personality does not do well when it's starved of attention

 

[SteveNZ]

Worth also mentioning that England in the Baz Ball era have smashed us 5 out of 6 Tests, and lost one when they wanted to win by an innings and play golf (obviously we played good enough cricket to win, but point remains)

This side needs to prove it is decent by finding a way to reverse that dominance. Latham wanted to play it down this week and talk about fine margins although it wasn't fine, we were smashed.

Otherwise, that Indian miracle is looking it was exactly that, rather than a set of results brilliantly planned and executed by not even a great side, but even merely a good one. The evidence is mounting that we've had very,very few decent Test series performances since the WTC win

 

[jcas0167]

Great points. You could look back on my posts for the last decade and see me bemoaning that tailenders refuse to bat for an established batsman. O'Rourke is a rare exception. It gives me the shits.

GP batting well with the tail might be true but it's such a lazy, unintelligent reason. Number 6s bat with the tail, too. GP is a far better bat than Blundell therefore, in the best interest of the side, should bat higher to maximise his run output.

Dylan Cleaver made a great point in his sub stack (which every NZ fan should subscribe to,it's brilliant) that GP's all round talent is being underutilized. His Test bowling average is 28 but bowled 9 overs in the first Test, and we're likely going to add Santner in Wellington and again dilute his influence. Bashir bowled 32 overs when his side won the toss and bowled. One of our best talents is being used as a tail shielding batsman and part time spinner. I also feel like he goes silly in the field when he isn't allowed to have an influence on the game - he got carried away and did it in the Australian T20s last season and he did it this week. That cat on a hot tin roof personality does not do well when it's starved of attention

I literally was just reading Cleaver's latest substack post about the test :-) Interesting point about Phillips also being underbowled.

 

[Flem274*]

Phillips looks like he's going to get out every other ball and his bowling is a bit jammy but he has that most crucial of attributes for a sportsman - God loves him.

 

[SteveNZ]

Phillips looks like he's going to get out every other ball and his bowling is a bit jammy but he has that most crucial of attributes for a sportsman - God loves him.

What's to say his bowling is jammy, though? Two of the best bowling performances I've seen in the last five years were his insane 3-37 off 10 in the World Cup when the opposition were on to score 450, and the 5-45 at the Basin last year. Who were those against? Australia, for whom a lot of the side have a mental block. You look across his Test career and in most bowling innings', he's contributed.

I don't expect him to bat in the top 4 but even with the bat, he's making good starts more often than not. It's stupid to suggest he can't play the way he did last week, batting one higher. And the only way he's going to get better is to be given more responsibility.

There's only one GP in terms of talent and to my mind we're using it horribly. By Australia 2026-27, let him bat 5, back him as your main spinner in non-spinning conditions, he'll respond. At the moment, he's being used with even less value than Mitchell Santner, given Santner bats one lower but bowls a lot more (and averaged 45+ until Pune). To steal a Cleaver stat, Santner has bowled 30 overs on average per Test, GP 19, and Santner takes a wicket every 78 balls compared to GP's 49.

 

[Immenso]

In matches involving both Southee and O'Rourke.

Noted bunny O'Rourke has an average partnership of 19.00 from 12 innings. Southee has an average partnership of 18.33 (also from 12 innings).

Yellow - Southee,
Blue = O'Rourke.
Note that there is no crossover, Southee has never managed to be batting with the number 11 in these games.

(If I have done the query correctly ...)

Partnership records | Test matches | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPNcricinfo.com

stats.espncricinfo.com

 

[Immenso]

If I do the cardinal sin, and exclude Southee's one single good partnership (of 137 with Ravindra in Bangalore). Where he played himself in for the first 30 balls for the first time since Colombo 2012.

His average partnership is 8.09

 

[Bahnz]

Has everyone forgotten that Ravindra is an opener? I’d like to see him get a go there for Conway, and get Young into the middle order.

Blundell’s time is definitely up, Hay kept very well in Sri Lanka and scored some runs too, despite a quiet domestic season so far. Get the feeling we’ll have to wait until next year to see it though.

Ravindra was treading water as an opener in domestic cricket. Not well suited to it at all, especially in NZ conditions. I reckon he should be left at 4. Could probably even make a case for him and Mitchell swapping places.

 

[ashley bach]

To add to much of the above I'd also say that it's infuriating when tailenders don't apply themselves.
What WOR did the other day just goes to show how much value can be taken away from it when dedication is applied.
One of the biggest problems for NZ has been the way Southee bats which has kind of set a bad precedent for so many years.
With any luck once he retires this could change and a new standard could be set.
There's nothing more annoying than taking ages to get the last 2-3 wickets especially when every partnership continues to chip in so the theory should
be quite simple, annoy the crap out of and exhaust your opponents as much as possible.

 

[Skyliner]

Great points. You could look back on my posts for the last decade and see me bemoaning that tailenders refuse to bat for an established batsman. O'Rourke is a rare exception. It gives me the shits.

GP batting well with the tail might be true but it's such a lazy, unintelligent reason. Number 6s bat with the tail, too. GP is a far better bat than Blundell therefore, in the best interest of the side, should bat higher to maximise his run output.

Dylan Cleaver made a great point in his sub stack (which every NZ fan should subscribe to,it's brilliant) that GP's all round talent is being underutilized. His Test bowling average is 28 but bowled 9 overs in the first Test, and we're likely going to add Santner in Wellington and again dilute his influence. Bashir bowled 32 overs when his side won the toss and bowled. One of our best talents is being used as a tail shielding batsman and part time spinner. I also feel like he goes silly in the field when he isn't allowed to have an influence on the game - he got carried away and did it in the Australian T20s last season and he did it this week. That cat on a hot tin roof personality does not do well when it's starved of attention

The ‘brains trust’ of the BC’s seem to react to an external idea in much the same way that a sea anemone does when you try to touch it. They close ranks and pull up the drawbridge. Float the idea that Phillips should bat at 6 and they perceive it as an attack on them and their mate Tom Blundell. “We’re backing Tom to come right” is the response to a question that has ramifications for both the short term and long term balance of the side and maximising the skill set of each player. The ‘backing to come right’ then must be pursued almost indefinitely, with the brains trust becoming more obstinate the more the drums beat for change.

 

[Howsie]

Southee, Boult and to a lesser extent Henry, hell I’m going to chuck Wagner in to because he wasn’t always perfect were/have been horrible for years. Scared of quick bowling, end of really. Needed a coach to publicly call them out for being cats with the bat.

O’Rourke might not have any talent with the bat, and all those guys did. But hey at least he has a set of balls and will get in behind it.

 

[Bahnz]

Yeah, the big problem is there's just no flexibility in the approach. I can understand the rationale for batting that way when they're 7 or 8 wickets
down and have Henry and Southee at the crease. But when they're batting with a guy like Mitchell, Phillips or Rachin, leave the run-scoring to the bloke down the other end and just try and last as long as possible. Sure, take opportunities to score when they're on offer, but don't just heave at anything on a good length.

 

[RossTaylorsBox]

They bought into the hype when it was going well because we could legitimately squeeze an extra 50-60 out of those last couple of wickets.

 

[Immenso]

Southee spent 15 years spreading the field, and 14.9 years hitting it down their throats.

 

[SteveNZ]

To add to much of the above I'd also say that it's infuriating when tailenders don't apply themselves.
What WOR did the other day just goes to show how much value can be taken away from it when dedication is applied.
One of the biggest problems for NZ has been the way Southee bats which has kind of set a bad precedent for so many years.
With any luck once he retires this could change and a new standard could be set.
There's nothing more annoying than taking ages to get the last 2-3 wickets especially when every partnership continues to chip in so the theory should
be quite simple, annoy the crap out of and exhaust your opponents as much as possible.

It's infuriating, it's unprofessional, it's ineffective, it's really a lot of ins and uns.

If I was batting 6-7 and they batted this way around me, while I'm trying to forge a Test career and bat for my country, I'd be absolutely filthy. But the guys who historically did it, Boult/Southee/Henry and to a lesser extent Wagner (although at times he proved he could do better) were the senior players.

I almost guarantee that the younger brigade coming in after those names won't do it. I don't actually mind if Southee bats the way he does sometimes, because clearly it has effect in the right situations. And sure, you might miss out on a couple of knocks because you're asking him to be circumspect. But he gets too far wrong too often, and he also plays ridiculously dumb shots like trying to hook with 3 men back to a 90m boundary into the wind. And you're right, nothing annoys the bowling team more than having to spend more time out there, trying to come up with plans to chip out an obdurate batsman.

I don't buy that they were scared - well they were, but I just hate it as a narrative. I've pissed on about this, Trent won a national one-day batting prize at the NZ one-day champs. He's a low handicap golfer. Tim is a natural sportsman, a magnificent fielder. These guys can see the ball. They just chose to bat the way they did, and to not get behind it. Chris Martin used to. Will O'Rourke does. It's so lame. Even in 'Baz Ball' Jack Leach plays expansively some days, but by god if you need him to get 0 off 100, he will. Stokes' Headingley epic doesn't happen if he can't.