McGrath & Lillee vs Donald & Steyn vs Imran & Akram

[kyear2]

That's fine I guess. I don't judge him on a single tour of Pakistan but it's a pretty big hole.

What was Lillee's WSC record in WI though?

I recall it was pretty decent, will have to look for it.

 

[subshakerz]

Saw him destroy us often enough, feel like the SA guys are really underrated around here.

Nah. Steyn and Kallis are rated very high here.

Donald underperforming at key moments was one of the reasons the 90s team is underrated. Had they won in England in the 90s or a series against Australia it may have been different.

 

[Prince EWS]

Lillee I'm aware you have your issues with, why not Donald though? He was superb almost everywhere, absolute rapid and I feel a tad underrated when he played.

I rate Donald a lot higher than Lillee and I guess not that far from Wasim, but he had a relatively short career by ATG standards, retired right before bowling got a lot harder and had very favourable home conditions. Given all that I'd have needed him to average closer to 20 to rate him in the same kind of league as Wasim. I actually rate Pollock slightly higher which I realise isn't a popular view.

 

[kyear2]

Nah. Steyn and Kallis are rated very high here.

Donald underperforming at key moments was one of the reasons the 90s team is underrated. Had they won in England in the 90s or a series against Australia it may have been different.

Kallis, not really tbh.

And yes, I watched the all rounder video, and yes they said Kallis batted for himself (which has never been a secret), but he was also a clear no. 3.

My serious issue with criticizing Jaques for not bowling enough is three fold.
1. They were protecting him long term, why place that great a burden on his body and risk affecting his batting.
2. There's nothing wrong with being the 4th of 5th bowler.
3. When he wasn't bowling, he was still providing top end support and production at slip. He was still providing quality.

 

[Coronis]

That's fine I guess. I don't judge him on a single tour of Pakistan but it's a pretty big hole.

What was Lillee's WSC record in WI though?

5 matches 8 innings 23 @ 28.39 had the best strike rate but the worst economy of the major bowlers who played that tour (Thomson and Pascoe had similar struggles). Holding was at his best then, though bowled 10 innings and only took 1 more wicket (I guess it helps when one of your support bowlers isn’t Ray Bright)

Chappell completely dominated the series from a batting standpoint.

 

[kyear2]

I rate Donald a lot higher than Lillee and I guess not that far from Wasim, but he had a relatively short career by ATG standards, retired right before bowling got a lot harder and had very favourable home conditions. Given all that I'd have needed him to average closer to 20 to rate him in the same kind of league as Wasim. I actually rate Pollock slightly higher which I realise isn't a popular view.

But Wasim's record wasn't much better and if you're saying longevity, then his wpm falls off the cliff and dips below ATG standard.

 

[Prince EWS]

But Wasim's record wasn't much better and if you're saying longevity, then his wpm falls off the cliff and dips below ATG standard.

Wasim had much less favourable home conditions (and much less favourable fielding support) and a longer career. Those things all definitely all matter a lot to me. I don't really care about WPM.

I rate Imran and Steyn as equals and can't vote for a combination with Lillee in it so it basically got down to this comparison for me and I definitely rate Wasim ahead of Donald.

 

[kyear2]

5 matches 8 innings 23 @ 28.39 had the best strike rate but the worst economy of the major bowlers who played that tour (Thomson and Pascoe had similar struggles). Holding was at his best then, though bowled 10 innings and only took 1 more wicket (I guess it helps when one of your support bowlers isn’t Ray Bright)

Chappell completely dominated the series from a batting standpoint.

So not that great then.

I recall reading an article from around when the Cricinfo team came out and it did question Lillee (and Bradman) basically only playing in two counties.

Will switch my vote to SA then, as much as I rate Pidge, Lillee really is a question mark outside of his comfort zone.

 

[Coronis]

I recall it was pretty decent, will have to look for it.

WSC Australia tour of West Indies 1978/79 Statistics | ESPNcricinfo

Take a look at all the WSC Australia tour of West Indies 1978/79 Statistics. Discover WSC Australia tour of West Indies Statistics on player records, team performances, and more on ESPNcricninfo

www.espncricinfo.com

For your pleasure

 

[subshakerz]

Kallis, not really tbh.

And yes, I watched the all rounder video, and yes they said Kallis batted for himself (which has never been a secret), but he was also a clear no. 3.

My serious issue with criticizing Jaques for not bowling enough is three fold.
1. They were protecting him long term, why place that great a burden on his body and risk affecting his batting.
2. There's nothing wrong with being the 4th of 5th bowler.
3. When he wasn't bowling, he was still providing top end support and production at slip. He was still providing quality.

Um, I said Kallis is rated high here, on CW.

Not sure why we have to debate him again but Kallis being protected and not that eager to bowl anyways does go against him compared to Sobers and Imran who were specialist level in secondary roles. And slips is a tertiary skill no matter how much you asset otherwise.

 

[Prince EWS]

So not that great then.

I recall reading an article from around when the Cricinfo team came out and it did question Lillee (and Bradman) basically only playing in two counties.

Will switch my vote to SA then, as much as I rate Pidge, Lillee really is a question mark outside of his comfort zone.

Anyone who plays 63% of their matches at home in a relatively bowler-friendly era should be averaging way less than 24 if they want to be called an ATG IMO, regardless even of how he goes in the few away matches he plays.

 

[subshakerz]

I rate Donald a lot higher than Lillee and I guess not that far from Wasim, but he had a relatively short career by ATG standards, retired right before bowling got a lot harder and had very favourable home conditions. Given all that I'd have needed him to average closer to 20 to rate him in the same kind of league as Wasim. I actually rate Pollock slightly higher which I realise isn't a popular view.

These are excellent points.

Now that I think about it, Donald really was worldclass for only 4-5 years. Pollock until 2003 has a good case to be rated near him and was more of a big match performer away.

 

[kyear2]

Um, I said Kallis is rated high here, on CW.

Not sure why we have to debate him again but Kallis being protected and not that eager to bowl anyways does go against him compared to Sobers and Imran who were specialist level in secondary roles. And slips is a tertiary skill no matter how much you asset otherwise.

Wasn't arguing, was responding to something you requested me to do in another thread.

I also love how you impose your perspective as more valid than mine. To you it's less important. I also don't think Imran was specialists quality as a batsman, at least not until he wasn't as a bowler. But we can debate that elsewhere.

But no, I see you and others greatly underrating his batting as well as his bowling workload and minimizing his impact In the slips (the last one being mainly you) but again, we can debate that elsewhere.

 

[subshakerz]

So not that great then.

I recall reading an article from around when the Cricinfo team came out and it did question Lillee (and Bradman) basically only playing in two counties.

Will switch my vote to SA then, as much as I rate Pidge, Lillee really is a question mark outside of his comfort zone.

Yeah I think that does take Lillee down a bit because it makes his dependence on Aus, Eng and NZ more stark.

 

[subshakerz]

Wasn't arguing, was responding to something you requested me to do in another thread.

I also love how you impose your perspective as more valid than mine. To you it's less important. I also don't think Imran was specialists quality as a batsman, at least not until he wasn't as a bowler. But we can debate that elsewhere.

But no, I see you and others greatly underrating his batting as well as his bowling workload and minimizing his impact In the slips (the last one being mainly you) but again, we can debate that elsewhere.

Sure can debate elsewhere.

Will switch my vote to SA then, as much as I rate Pidge, Lillee really is a question mark outside of his comfort zone.

What is the big advantage of SA over Pak in this scenario?

I would concede that SA may be slightly better with the new ball in good bowling conditions but I don't see their bowling styles as meshing well and things can go rocky. SA have traditionally had one aggressive swinger and a more tight seamer at the other end.

 

[kyear2]

WSC Australia tour of West Indies 1978/79 Statistics | ESPNcricinfo

Take a look at all the WSC Australia tour of West Indies 1978/79 Statistics. Discover WSC Australia tour of West Indies Statistics on player records, team performances, and more on ESPNcricninfo

www.espncricinfo.com

For your pleasure

Had no reason not to believe you.

Totally unrelated, Chappell and to a lesser extent Lloyd are really underappreciated cricketers. Chappell doesn't quite make the BAB category, but he's just on the periphery of the top 10, and not nearly as bad as some here like to project. Lloyd is a bit further back, but shows up here and there with strong performances, he wasn't a great captain but he was an impactful one and a great uniter and leader. He and Chappell were also top tier catchers.

Will get back on topic now.

 

[subshakerz]

Lloyd is a bit further back, but shows up here and there with strong performances, he wasn't a great captain but he was an impactful one and a great uniter and leader. He and Chappell were also top tier catchers.

Thought you didn't factor in captaincy in how you rate players though. Anyways...

 

[kyear2]

Anyone who plays 63% of their matches at home in a relatively bowler-friendly era should be averaging way less than 24 if they want to be called an ATG IMO, regardless even of how he goes in the few away matches he plays.

I don't think we can drop him below ATG, he was rated the GOAT when he retired. Though to be fair it was basically just Lindwall and Davidson before him and he did have a forceful personality.

But yeah, your points are all very valid.

 

[Prince EWS]

I don't think we can drop him below ATG, he was rated the GOAT when he retired. Though to be fair it was basically just Lindwall and Davidson before him and he did have a forceful personality.

But yeah, your points are all very valid.

I think other people are wrong about current cricketers all the time so see no reason to assume I'd have agreed with the consensus at the time either.

 

[kyear2]

Thought you didn't factor in captaincy in how you rate players though. Anyways...

Also said he wasn't a great one and wasn't rating him by it. But damn, he created a dynasty that changed and rocked world cricket off it's axis. Just saying think he's a bit underrated overall. Not ATG, just underappreciated.