Brian Lara vs Jacques Kallis

[kyear2]

Calling a #8 batsmen a “designated spot for the team” and implying a 5th bowler isn’t is about the height of ignorance

Exactly this.

Was only a 4 match series too so no excuses tor Tendulkar. Even Kallis can make 500+.

So yes, it is possible.

iirc Lara has a few catches himself.

Very much so, and while not quite in the same league as Kallis, he was pretty damn good.

 

[kyear2]

As per the actual thread, Lara and easily. Quite easily actually.

And yeah, for those that has Kallis higher it sincerely makes me wonder if they ever watched either.

 

[subshakerz]

So yeah, in terms of causing real world harm, think having a competent no. 8 may actually be last.

In terms of having real world positive impact they may all be equal.

Yes, virtually every team has a useful tailender, most also have a decent 5th and cordon etc. though I would prefer the cordon to be considerably better than decent.

This is the crux of our disagreement. I have just seen teams more negatively impacted by a bad tail and have more upside from their extra runs.

The 5th bowler isn't going to save an attack if the first four bowlers failed. He just needs to be good enough for rest overs and frankly most teams can have one or two bowlers capable of doing that.

Stop mentioning slips please.

 

[subshakerz]

And yeah, for those that has Kallis higher it sincerely makes me wonder if they ever watched either.

Based on record, why isn't Kallis higher than Lara? Sincere question.

 

[L Trumper]

Based on record, why isn't Kallis higher than Lara? Sincere question.

Taking out Ban & Zim they both average roughly the same (52.53 vs 52.98) & Lara had about 5 more runs per innings. (51 vs 46)

 

[subshakerz]

Taking out Ban & Zim they both average roughly the same (52.53 vs 52.98) & Lara had about 5 more runs per innings. (51 vs 46)

Kallis still has arguably as good if not better away record and a more accomplished home record.

 

[kyear2]

This is the crux of our disagreement. I have just seen teams more negatively impacted by a bad tail and have more upside from their extra runs.

The 5th bowler isn't going to save an attack if the first four bowlers failed. He just needs to be good enough for rest overs and frankly most teams can have one or two bowlers capable of doing that.

Stop mentioning slips please.

So, genuine question. What do you consider being negatively impacted. The lower order not scoring as high as the top order? Because that's not a thing.
The team failing to get competitive scores? Because against that's the purview of the top order.

Even the examples you gave about the 5th bowler saving the team, that not the primary, nor regular responsibility of either.

Now if you're talking about having a bunny tail and getting near to no contribution from them,
1. I assume you're getting bowling contributions from them to make up for the short fall, and
2. Not sure how much that's happened in any event.

I asked someone earlier if they would take Kapil over Jasprit if they could only have one, don't think anyone's going for the batting in that scenario.

With regards to the slips, no.

Last night ee literally just saw India's innings where every wicket but the 10th, fell to catches behind the wicket, where btw Australia was perfect.

To ignore or discard it not only ignores an important aspect of the game, but it denigrates the practitioners of it.

It also makes away one of Kallis's skills in any comparison.

So for a country like Australia, England, New Zealand or SA where most of the dismissals are taken behind the wicket, it's just as important as any other secondary skill of not more so.
The great WI, Australia or SA teams relied more on their slip cordons that their lower order for victories.

So no, I'll not stop talking about it.

 

[kyear2]

Kallis still has arguably as good if not better away record and a more accomplished home record.

How they did in the 90's, how they did in the biggest moments, the iconic series, the genius of the man.

All the same reasons Sachin is better

 

[subshakerz]

How they did in the 90's, how they did in the biggest moments, the iconic series, the genius of the man.

All the same reasons Sachin is better

So it seems you are saying Kallis has the better overall record though and rating Lara ahead on other factors. Interesting.

 

[subshakerz]

So, genuine question. What do you consider being negatively impacted. The lower order not scoring as high as the top order? Because that's not a thing.
The team failing to get competitive scores? Because against that's the purview of the top order.

Even the examples you gave about the 5th bowler saving the team, that not the primary, nor regular responsibility of either.

Now if you're talking about having a bunny tail and getting near to no contribution from them,
1. I assume you're getting bowling contributions from them to make up for the short fall, and
2. Not sure how much that's happened in any event.

Three reasons why late order runs matter more than the 5th bowler role:

- The difference between a bunny tail and a good tail is quite stark, somewhere along the lines of 30 to 40 runs an innings which in the long term makes a big difference. I saw this most in the 90s WIs team that had a crummy tail and this exacerbated their batting foes since promising scores were frequently out of reach

- It's not just the runs of the tail themselves. It's their ability to stick around for the keeper and others in the middle order to build frustrating partnerships and stretch their innings. And this impact can be seen virtually every innings, whereas the times a 5th bowler is impactful is not every innings.

- The 5th bowler bowls around 5 to 10 overs per innings with the primary goal to give the main bowlers a rest. Even Kallis in his early career was a 3rd or 4th bowler with a heavier load, when he was a 4th/5th bowler late career he hardly had the same impact. The dropoff from a Kallis to a Tendulkar as 5th bowler is not as detrimental as a good tail to a bunny tail.

With regards to the slips, no.

Last night ee literally just saw India's innings where every wicket but the 10th, fell to catches behind the wicket, where btw Australia was perfect.

To ignore or discard it not only ignores an important aspect of the game, but it denigrates the practitioners of it.

It also makes away one of Kallis's skills in any comparison.

So for a country like Australia, England, New Zealand or SA where most of the dismissals are taken behind the wicket, it's just as important as any other secondary skill of not more so.
The great WI, Australia or SA teams relied more on their slip cordons that their lower order for victories.

So no, I'll not stop talking about it.

You make all these points about slips but when pressed, you will refrain from giving a quantified estimate of it.

And virtually every side has a minimum competent slip cordon as a standard. However, I have already conceded that it makes impact as a tertiary skill, similar to captaincy which likely impacts even more but which you discredit.

 

[kyear2]

So it seems you are saying Kallis has the better overall record though and rating Lara ahead on other factors. Interesting.

Where did I say that?