Jack Hobbs vs Sachin Tendulkar

[subshakerz]

Yeah that knock on itself was better than any Gavaskar knock in 76. But Gavaskar scored in 3 of the 4 matches.

No Roberts in two of those games.

 

[capt_Luffy]

No Roberts in two of those games.

But Holding was there. And the last one was a blood bath.

 

[BazBall21]

Was Holding then the same level as Marshall in 1988?

 

[BazBall21]

Marshall's 1988 tour wasn't adjacent to Gooch 1981 because the runs came on slower tracks v shallower attacks but I'd give it the edge over Gavaskar's 1976 tour. Gavaskar's 1970/71 tour is a different kind of achievement. Heavy run scoring v a powderpuff attack.

 

[subshakerz]

Was Holding then the same level as Marshall in 1988?

Forget Marshall.

Walsh by 88 was an accomplished threat with worldclass figures.

71 wickets in 17 games@21 at that point.

 

[BazBall21]

Forget Marshall.

Walsh by 88 was an accomplished threat with worldclass figures.

71 wickets in 17 games@21 at that point.

Yeah fair point. There was very little in 1976 outside a raw Holding and Roberts IIRC. Perhaps @capt_Luffy could argue Gavaskar's 60-odd opening in Jamaica beats anything Miandad has on fast surfaces. A titan effort but not a match-shaping score.

 

[kyear2]

...literally two months after the India series, Holding had THAT England series and THAT London test and had already played a 5 match series in international cricket, Ambrose on the other hand was an actual debutant who did horribly all around, I agree with @capt_Luffy on 76 Gavaskar matching Miandad

But the main point of what I was saying was still missed.

 

[BazBall21]

Miandad has an excellent record v Hadlee but the pitches in the 1989 series were very flat and Hadlee's support at the other end was inadequate. Richard struggled in that series.

Javed had a middling tour of NZ in 1985 and didn't face great Hadlee at home. Hadlee only played in Pakistan when he was a nobody.

The Christchurch double-innings performance in 1979 was his best display v Hadlee. Hadlee took 18 @ 23 in that series and his path to greatness was underway.

 

[capt_Luffy]

Miandad has an excellent record v Hadlee but the pitches in the 1989 series were very flat and Hadlee's support at the other end was inadequate. Richard struggled in that series.

Javed had a middling tour of NZ in 1985 and didn't face great Hadlee at home. The Christchurch double-innings performance in 1979 was his best display v Hadlee. Hadlee took 18 @ 23 in that series and his path to greatness was underway.

Overall, I really am founding it difficult to say he Gavaskar had comparable away records. I believe I made a comparison list, mostly while talking with HHH, that showed country by country Gavaskar and Viv had pretty close away records comparing strength to strength to strength and weakness to weakness overall; the edge Viv has is scoring more in the really tough ones like 79 Australia.

 

[BazBall21]

Overall, I really am founding it difficult to say he Gavaskar had comparable away records. I believe I made a comparison list, mostly while talking with HHH, that showed country by country Gavaskar and Viv had pretty close away records overall; the edge Viv has is scoring more in the really tough ones like 79 Australia.

Gavaskar is better than Miandad but I think we have established at this point I don't rate him as highly as you do and I've pushed forward objective arguments as to why that is.

 

[subshakerz]

Miandad has an excellent record v Hadlee but the pitches in the 1989 series were very flat and Hadlee's support at the other end was inadequate. Richard struggled in that series.

Javed had a middling tour of NZ in 1985 and didn't face great Hadlee at home. The Christchurch double-innings performance in 1979 was his best display v Hadlee. Hadlee took 18 @ 23 in that series and his path to greatness was underway.

Yes. Having said that, a ton and double ton in 89 against Hadlee away still deserves credit

 

[kyear2]

FTR Gavaskar is in my top 15 while Miandad my top 30

Again, don't think anyone is disputing that Sunny is better.

 

[capt_Luffy]

Gavaskar is better than Miandad but I think we have established at this point I don't rate him as highly as you do and I've pushed forward objective arguments as to why that is.

Fair that is. I still think overall I won't call any country away a particular hole, with failing in some series vs big names being the most acceptable caveat.

 

[subshakerz]

Overall, I really am founding it difficult to say he Gavaskar had comparable away records. I believe I made a comparison list, mostly while talking with HHH, that showed country by country Gavaskar and Viv had pretty close away records comparing strength to strength to strength and weakness to weakness overall; the edge Viv has is scoring more in the really tough ones like 79 Australia.

Sunny is nowhere near Viv in Aus and Eng when you factor that Viv has multiple good/great series and quality of attacks Viv faced. Sunny is definitely better in Pakistan tho Viv had a near ATG series there.

 

[BazBall21]

Yes. Having said that, a ton and double ton in 89 against Hadlee away still deserves credit

Yeah it does

 

[kyear2]

But Holding was there. And the last one was a blood bath.

The points that I've made that you ignore is that

If there were no Roberts, that's a thing. He was the leader of the attack.

Also, he only ever, not mainly (which is the norm) scored runs on roads and spinning / flat tracks over here. That '76 in Sabina he was noted to be uncomfortable and had two chances.

On wickets that provided pace or lateral movement, it seemed that he failed vs the big guns, and consistently. So from the narrative that he averaged what he did in the Caribbean, hence he must have been good vs the quicks on the quickest decks, it wasn't the case.

 

[BazBall21]

Sunny is nowhere near Viv in Aus and Eng when you factor that Viv has multiple good/great series and quality of attacks Viv faced. Sunny is definitely better in Pakistan tho Viv had a near ATG series there.

Yeah smaller gap in Pakistan than Australia and England. Viv was good in India too.

 

[capt_Luffy]

Sunny is nowhere near Viv in Aus and Eng when you factor that Viv has multiple good/great series and quality of attacks Viv faced. Sunny is definitely better in Pakistan tho Viv had a near ATG series there.

Viv in England = Sunny in Pakistan (Both the best Batsmen in those countries (not counting Don))
Viv in Australia > Sunny in WI (Sunny had 2 Great series, but failed in the toughest one. Viv is ahead in Australia for 79, was pretty good in 76 as well; but not by a huge margin)
Viv in Pakistan = Sunny in England (Both had 1 ATG series, but mostly underwhelming)
Viv in India = Sunny in Australia (Viv did good in India in a tough series vs the quartet, but played some mid attacks as well. Sunny did Great in 79 vs Thommo and Clarke, played a 70 in a poor tour vs Lillee in a successful chase and scored heavily in 85)
Viv in NZ < Sunny in NZ (Sunny not much against Hadlee, but Viv was worse)

 

[kyear2]

Yeah fair point. There was very little in 1976 outside a raw Holding and Roberts IIRC. Perhaps @capt_Luffy could argue Gavaskar's 60-odd opening in Jamaica beats anything Miandad has on fast surfaces. A titan effort but not a match-shaping score.

Again I would quite this from the match report, re that 60 on the Sabina pitch.

 

[capt_Luffy]

The points that I've made that you ignore is that

If there were no Roberts, that's a thing. He was the leader of the attack.

Also, he only ever, not mainly (which is the norm) scored runs on roads and spinning / flat tracks over here. That '76 in Sabina he was noted to be uncomfortable and had two chances.

On wickets that provided pace or lateral movement, it seemed that he failed vs the big guns, and consistently. So from the narrative that he averaged what he did in the Caribbean, hence he must have been good vs the quicks on the quickest decks, it wasn't the case.

I think I have addressed this already. Roberts played one of the Tests as well in which he scored a ton. He failed completely in 83, no point in dissecting, and scored everywhere in 71. Given chance or not, there are reports of Holding bowling beamers there as well. 66 works fine in such conditions.