Jack Hobbs vs Sachin Tendulkar

[capt_Luffy]

Gavaskar's bigger issue than Pace was movement imo, he was vulnerable to swing, visible even in raw records.

Gavaskar against England and New Zealand —

3134 runs at 39.17 average from 83 innings, only 6 tons.

Yeah, but he averaged less in India vs England than in England, which honestly is very strange and isn't explained by problem against movement. His record is a mix bag in NZ, one good tour and a poor one.

 

[BazBall21]

Gavaskar's inexplicable failure v a modest England attack in 1984/85 was the single biggest reason behind England's surprise victory there.

 

[capt_Luffy]

Yeah he was very good v Pakistan, but in general when he is placed that high, it's generally due to his record v WI which is historically overestimated.

Might be. I also think we shan't totally ignore the '71 series like we do. Yes, it was against a poor attack, but it was a legit Great series. Scoring 774 runs in 5 matches @154; in what turned out to be India's FIRST overseas series win in any NZ country, is impressive. As was his double ton in the 5th Test, which clutches a draw when the rest of the line-up crumbled. It was one of the 4 Gold innings of Gavaskar in DoG's rankings (the other 3 were 221, 96 and 236). '83 away was outright poor with a single ton, '83 home was Great with him being successful in 3 of the 6 matches and so was the '76 series with him being successful in 3 of the 4 matches.

 

[BazBall21]

Might be. I also think we shan't totally ignore the '71 series like we do. Yes, it was against a poor attack, but it was a legit Great series. Scoring 774 runs in 5 matches @154; in what turned out to be India's FIRST overseas series win in any NZ country, is impressive. As was his double ton in the 5th Test, which clutches a draw when the rest of the line-up crumbled. It was one of the 4 Gold innings of Gavaskar in DoG's rankings (the other 3 were 221, 96 and 236). '83 away was outright poor with a single ton, '83 home was Great with him being successful in 3 of the 6 matches and so was the '76 series with him being successful in 3 of the 4 matches.

Gavaskar in 1970/71 should be praised, but under different connotations.

It is an example of his terrific ability to set games up which is important in tests and why he is one of the best test batsmen since 1970. It isn't though an example of handling a quality attack, which is what Gavaskar's acclaim v WI is in reference to.

 

[subshakerz]

Gavaskar's bigger issue than Pace was movement imo, he was vulnerable to swing, visible even in raw records.

Gavaskar against England and New Zealand —

3134 runs at 39.17 average from 83 innings, only 6 tons.

Hmm yeah he never had a good/great series against Hadlee or Lillee. A bit padded against WI. Great against Pakistan.

 

[Johan]

Yeah, but he averaged less in India vs England than in England, which honestly is very strange and isn't explained by problem against movement. His record is a mix bag in NZ, one good tour and a poor one.

Well NZ has him having a very good match against a Hadlee-less NZ, next match Hadlee was back and dismissed gim at 71, after that Hadlee ran through Wellington and got him at 22 and the next tour has him averaging 25 when Hadlee was around for all three.

I'll say this tho, he failed 4/5 tours in England but has that one ATG tour, very Virat esque. His home average against England, well I reckon Underwood bullying him in 72-73 and 76-77 plays a factor, you can check the numbers tho, I also remember him struggling greatly with Cowans in India but don't take my word for it.

 

[ataraxia]

Gavaskar's inexplicable failure v a modest England attack in 1984/85 was the single biggest reason behind England's surprise victory there.

If it's inexplicable then it's completely irrelevant to how good Gavaskar was.

 

[capt_Luffy]

Well NZ has him having a very good match against a Hadlee-less NZ, next match Hadlee was back and dismissed gim at 71, after that Hadlee ran through Wellington and got him at 22 and the next tour has him averaging 25 when Hadlee was around for all three.

I'll say this tho, he failed 4/5 tours in England but has that one ATG tour, very Virat esque. His home average against England, well I reckon Underwood bullying him in 72-73 and 76-77 plays a factor, you can check the numbers tho, I also remember him struggling greatly with Cowans in India but don't take my word for it.

IIRC he was absent hurt when Hadlee ran through India. His 2nd series was genuinely awful though. I will say, in the 5 tours of England, except his ATG one, his last tour was good and so was his second, in which he scored a very highly rated 104 in Manchester when the ball was moving all around.

 

[capt_Luffy]

Hmm yeah he never had a good/great series against Hadlee or Lillee. A bit padded against WI. Great against Pakistan.

Played Lillee in 3 matches. Had one Very good innings.
Had a good 71 against Hadlee, but sucked in the full series. Was good in the 76 home one though, century in 1st, 66 in 2nd and 43 in 3rd

 

[Johan]

IIRC he was absent hurt when Hadlee ran through India. His 2nd series was genuinely awful though. I will say, in the 5 tours of England, except his ATG one, his last tour was good and so was his second, in which he scored a very highly rated 104 in Manchester when the ball was moving all around.

Hadlee got him in the first inning (took 4/35 and then 7/23 when Gavaskar did not bat), Yeah I'd say 1986 series was pretty decent considering the conditions and he did his job of setting the stage for Vengsarkar, Overall I don't think he was particularly bad against movement but he was certainly vulnerable against it, like Kohli or Ponting, only poor when compared to Elites but generally pretty decent/good.

 

[subshakerz]

Played Lillee in 3 matches. Had one Very good innings.
Had a good 71 against Hadlee, but sucked in the full series. Was good in the 76 home one though, century in 1st, 66 in 2nd and 43 in 3rd

Hadlee wasn't anything in 76.

We don't reward fifties once a series with ATG points.

 

[subshakerz]

Well NZ has him having a very good match against a Hadlee-less NZ, next match Hadlee was back and dismissed gim at 71, after that Hadlee ran through Wellington and got him at 22 and the next tour has him averaging 25 when Hadlee was around for all three.

I'll say this tho, he failed 4/5 tours in England but has that one ATG tour, very Virat esque. His home average against England, well I reckon Underwood bullying him in 72-73 and 76-77 plays a factor, you can check the numbers tho, I also remember him struggling greatly with Cowans in India but don't take my word for it.

Yeah going over all this, I think I have to downgrade Gavaskar. I consider Hutton definitely better than him now.

 

[BazBall21]

If it's inexplicable then it's completely irrelevant to how good Gavaskar was.

Yeah that was my point. He was generally very clinical v modest attacks.

 

[Johan]

Yeah that was my point. He was generally very clinical v modest attacks.

maybe it was Cowans's pace?

 

[BazBall21]

maybe it was Cowans's pace?

Perhaps. He failed in other games where Cowan didn't get him though. Maybe out of form.

 

[Johan]

Perhaps. He failed in other games where Cowan didn't get him though. Maybe out of form.

most likely

 

[ankitj]

To be honest, I thought Kohli in his early approached the level of dedication towards his craft that Sachin exhibited, but then Kohli fell off the cliff and seems to have lost the fire. I never got the impression Sachin care about anything but cricket.

Fun fact. Kohli last played a Ranji match in 2012, Tendulkar last played a Ranji match in 2013.

Even Jadeja played a Ranji match in 2013. And I mean Ajay Jadeja.

 

[DrWolverine]

Virat’s failures have made me respect Sachin even more. It shows how tough it is to be at the highest level for a very long time in test cricket.

 

[kyear2]

Nah. Sunny closer to Viv for me overall than Lara to SRT. When Lara retired Sachin was equal to him, and he played for 6 more years and hit a magnificent second peak. Not a huge gulf overall, but Viv and Sunny closer.

I would hedge a bet that the general consensus is the exact opposite of yours.

There is no way that Sunny was seen to be closer to Viv than Lara was to Sachin.

 

[kyear2]

Hutton's elite level carried into the 50s and he has an excellent record in low-scoring tests incl some all-time crackers against a great Australian team. Hobbs is the more decorated cricketer overall but Hutton can go up against nearly anyone.

Hobbs may be the greatest ever opener, Hutton may very well be the best though.