Jack Hobbs vs Sachin Tendulkar

[subshakerz]

Sobers was also leagues ahead in impact as a bowler and while both were equally safe at slip, Sobers had more range and flexibility.

I agree, Kallis is leagues behind Sobers as a bowler.

Kallis is a secondrate Sobers.

 

[capt_Luffy]

Yes Tendulkar had a second peak but also a dip towards the end.

Overall has a notable bump over Lara but Sunny was never rated near Viv.

Depends whom you ask. Not in the West, but there were certainly a number of experts who rated him higher. Most notably Sobers and Hutton.

 

[subshakerz]

Adding to all the Tendulkar appreciation, I would say I appreciate Tendulkar's batting purity so much more these days than when he was playing. When he was active watching him bat was a weekly affair and in a way we got used to it. Now after enduring India's trash batting these days (not least all the troubles that Kohli is going through) you suddenly appreciate the precision in Tendulkar's footwork, trigger movements, head balance, shot selection etc. so much more. What a batsman he was!

To be honest, I thought Kohli in his early approached the level of dedication towards his craft that Sachin exhibited, but then Kohli fell off the cliff and seems to have lost the fire. I never got the impression Sachin care about anything but cricket.

 

[subshakerz]

I think not touring India is the only caveat for Chappell.

Yes. But saying Chappell didn't play long enough isn't really a big deal for me.

 

[subshakerz]

Depends whom you ask. Not in the West, but there were certainly a number of experts who rated him higher. Most notably Sobers and Hutton.

Viv was one of the 5 cricketers if the 20th century. I have gone through over a dozen Lord's Cricket ATG XI selected by cricketers of that era and he is almost always called the best. We don't need to pretend it's close as far as peer or pundit opinion is concerned.

 

[Johan]

Unlike Subz I don't doubt that Kallis was an ATG batsman, but the comparison to Sobers as a batsman falls flat.

Sobers was also leagues ahead in impact as a bowler and while both were equally safe at slip, Sobers had more range and flexibility.

Sobers as a Batsmen > Kallis as a player to me ngl, you add in the fact he was a pace bowler on par with Kallis and then a spinner on top, it's not close

 

[BazBall21]

Yes. But saying Chappell didn't play long enough isn't really a big deal for me.

Yeah. Obviously there are perfectly logical arguments for Ponting over Chappell for instance but I don't think playing a few more years when he didn't exactly sustain a top class level is one of those.

 

[capt_Luffy]

Viv was one of the 5 cricketers if the 20th century. I have gone through over a dozen Lord's Cricket ATG XI selected by cricketers of that era and he is almost always called the best. We don't need to pretend it's close as far as peer or pundit opinion is concerned.

As a overall player, Viv is top 5 of the 20th century, Gavaskar won't crack top 10. Now you ask me who the better Test Batsman was, it was Viv but not really by any significant margin imo. And as I said, Viv had the press because he was box office. It didn't happened with Lara/SRT as both were box office. But there were experts who rated Gavaskar back then also (I mean, two among the literal best batsmen after Don).

 

[peterhrt]

From Simon Wilde's book Letting RIP:

"Both Greg Chappell and Hick had a history of trouble against pace. For a long time Chappell's problem lay dormant...

By the second season of Packer he was shell-shocked and racked by self-doubt. The incessant bouncers and the balls coming into his ribs from round the wicket were forcing him to go onto the back foot, but he was reluctant to do so and his footwork had gone to pieces. He kept on being rapped on the shins (remember his outburst against Garner?), kept on getting out leg-before...

Things really fell apart not the following winter, but two years after that when West Indies paid another visit in 1981-82 and his game collapsed almost completely. At Melbourne - on a pitch he described as a disgrace and an embarrassment to Australian cricket - Chappell began an appalling sequence of performances in internationals. In 18 innings (four against Pakistan,14 against West Indies) he made seven ducks and six scores between one and 12...

Before the last Test of the season, at Adelaide, Chappell, disbelieving at his failures, had gone to have his eyes tested. Ironically he rediscovered his form in the first innings, scoring 61, but he was peppered with so many bouncers - Croft gave him five an over for three overs - that he had his knuckle broken...

Chappell never fully recovered from this episode. He played Test cricket for two more, largely untroubled, years - although England fitfully exploited his insecurity against the short ball - but his decision to retire directly before Australia left for a tour of the Caribbean can have surprised few insiders."

 

[Johan]

I think the 70-71 Windies tour of Gavaskar might influence Gary's opinion.

 

[capt_Luffy]

I think the 70-71 Windies tour of Gavaskar might influence Gary's opinion.

I would be shocked if it didn't at all and he still called him the best he saw.

 

[BazBall21]

As a overall player, Viv is top 5 of the 20th century, Gavaskar won't crack top 10. Now you ask me who the better Test Batsman was, it was Viv but not really by any significant margin imo. And as I said, Viv had the press because he was box office. It didn't happened with Lara/SRT as both were box office. But there were experts who rated Gavaskar back then also (I mean, two among the literal best batsmen after Don).

The mythology around his WI record led to that narrative. He is an ATG but not in contention for best since Bradman.

 

[kyear2]

Sunny struggled against Lillee..... In 2 matches. He faced him thrice, and scored 70 in the 3rd in a successful 4th innings chase and was given a horrible out. Re WI, toured against them in 76 and had a really Great series against a fiery Holding and Roberts. Did great in the '83 series as well. Really his struggles against pace are exaggerated.

Don't think SR is that important here really.

Toured in 76 vs a raw Holding and again only scored runs on the spin friendly queens park oval. Infact Sunny only scored hundreds, well runs really, on two pitches in the Caribbean. The aforementioned queens park oval and the even more spin friendly and slow Bourda in Guyana.

Wouldn't call '76 a really great series by the context of this conversation. Plundered at the QPO and struggled everywhere else. I know you love to include the 66 at Sabina as evidence to his mastery of the pitch, but from the match report



And he didn't do great in the '83 series.

He had scores of

20 - 0 - 32 - 147* - 2 - 19 - 18 -1

I would ask which pitch he scored the 147* on, but from my previous statement you would be able to guess Bourda.

He was not great against pace, and only scored against it on the slowest of pitches, at least vs us.

I'm not arguing that he wasn't a top ten batsman, but everything in your statement was incorrect, his struggles against pace was not exaggerated.

And of course SR is important, not everyone could have done what IVA did vs those guys. Actually not sure if anyone could, at least at that consistency.

 

[BazBall21]

Yeah he was feast or famine at best v proper WI. Obviously a far better player than Gooch overall but Gooch was much better v proper WI.

 

[capt_Luffy]

The mythology around his WI record led to that narrative. He is an ATG but not in contention for best since Bradman.

I don't believe so. His record against WI is more than impressive really, and if anything, it's hella underrated against Pakistan. I don't think he is really behind Richards and Hutton (already said Best since Bradman is a 2 man race for me).

 

[capt_Luffy]

Toured in 76 vs a raw Holding and again only scored runs on the soun friendly queens park oval. Infact Sunny only scored hundreds, well runs really, on two pitches in the Caribbean. The aforementioned queens park oval and the even more spin friendly and slow Bourda in Guyana.

Wouldn't call '76 a really great series by the context of this conversation. Plundered at the QPO and struggled everywhere else. I know you love to include the 66 at Sabina as evidence to his mastery of the pitch, but from the match report

View attachment 42484

And he didn't do great in the '83 series.

He had scores of

20 - 0 - 32 - 147* - 2 - 19 - 18 -1

I would ask which pitch he scored the 147* on, but from my previous statement you would be able to guess Bourda.

He was not great against pace, and only scored against it on the slowest of pitches, at least vs us.

I'm not arguing that he wasn't a top ten batsman, but everything in your statement was incorrect, his struggles against pace was not exaggerated.

And of course SR is important, not everyone could have done what IVA did vs those guys. Actually not sure if anyone could, at least at that consistency.

You can reference my previous posts on this matter in the Gavaskar vs Richards I posted. Holding set that series on fire and by the last Test they pretty much implemented body line. Also Roberts played 2 of those matches. And really dude??? 76 wasn't Great; because he scored in only 3 of the 4 matches???? There were also reports of Holding straight up beamers there.
Overall, I don't think it would be unfair to say Viv was a much Greater player of pace, but simultaneously, I can't see him scoring that 96.

 

[subshakerz]

but he was peppered with so many bouncers - Croft gave him five an over for three overs - that he had his knuckle broken...

Crap. That sort of barrage can ruin any player.

 

[Johan]

There is the 1983 series against Windies...

 

[BazBall21]

I don't believe so. His record against WI is more than impressive really, and if anything, it's hella underrated against Pakistan. I don't think he is really behind Richards and Hutton (already said Best since Bradman is a 2 man race for me).

Yeah he was very good v Pakistan, but in general when he is placed that high, it's generally due to his record v WI which is historically overestimated.

 

[Johan]

Gavaskar's bigger issue than Pace was movement imo, he was vulnerable to swing, visible even in raw records.

Gavaskar against England and New Zealand —

3134 runs at 39.17 average from 83 innings, only 6 tons.