Graham Gooch vs Vernon Philander

[BazBall21]

Yeah he is. But in helpful conditions, Philander is Significantly better than Gooch imo. Also, an underrated bat.

No8s who are astute at supporting set batsmen are a bit underrated.

 

[Coronis]

Yeah he is. But in helpful conditions, Philander is Significantly better than Gooch imo. Also, an underrated bat.

Likely, a normal team will have multiple players who are great in helpful conditions. Its much rarer to be great in tough conditions.

 

[capt_Luffy]

Likely, a normal team will have multiple players who are great in helpful conditions. Its much rarer to be great in tough conditions.

A normal team will likely play more often in helpful conditions suiting them at home. Gooch was great was WI, but not great against a lot of other oppositions.

 

[BazBall21]

A normal team will likely play more often in helpful conditions suiting them at home. Gooch was great was WI, but not great against a lot of other oppositions.

Only Australia really.

 

[capt_Luffy]

Frankly, it's not particularly close for me overall. I would take Philander the bowler over Gooch the batsman comfortably, and Philander's batting being borderline almost all-rounder level makes it quite easy for me.

 

[BazBall21]

I like Philander's batting but 'borderline all rounder level' for a bloke with a Test HS of 74 feels like a stretch.

And I've never felt players should be completely excused for being extremely condition dependent just because they happen to play their home games in favourable conditions. Philander taking points for being an out and out matchwinner in said conditions is a different and reasonable matter.

 

[capt_Luffy]

I like Philander's batting but nearly all rounder level for a bloke with a Test HS of 74 feels like a stretch.

And I've never felt players should be completely excused for being extremely condition dependent just because they happen to play their home games in favourable conditions.

Averages close to 25, which is the bare minimum cutoff for me. Never was a fan of the century criteria. Batted often at 7 too.

I am not completely waving off his record in SC, which very subpar. But he was a beast in SA, Eng and such conditions. Averaging 22 career, though slightly inflated, wins it for me there.

 

[BazBall21]

Averages close to 25, which is the bare minimum cutoff for me. Never was a fan of the century criteria. Batted often at 7 too.

I am not completely waving off his record in SC, which very subpar. But he was a beast in SA, Eng and such conditions. Averaging 22 career, though slightly inflated, wins it for me there.

Nearly all rounder level for someone with a Test highest score of 74 just feels wrong to me. If he batted higher he would have had more opportunities to go bigger but could equally have struggled against fresher bowlers.

 

[BazBall21]

You also haven't specified the "lots of oppositions" Gooch struggled against.

 

[capt_Luffy]

Nearly all rounder level for someone with a Test highest score of 74 just feels wrong to me. If he batted higher he would have had more opportunities to go bigger but could equally have struggled against fresher bowlers.

I really am not a huge century gauger. I mean, you can use the need of a century for metric, but I prefer average and batting position more.

You also haven't specified the "lots of oppositions" Gooch struggled against.

I mostly meant Australia, though sucked in his games vs SA as well.

 

[BazBall21]

I really am not a huge century gauger. I mean, you can use the need of a century for metric, but I prefer average and batting position more.
I mostly meant Australia, though sucked in his games vs SA as well.

"Lots" generally indicates at least four, not one.

He was 41 and past it when he played his games against SA, come on.

 

[capt_Luffy]

"Lots" generally indicates at least four, not one.

He was 41 and past it when he played his games against SA, come on.

I didn't thought so much before saying lots, geez. Though his away record is hardly special except WI anywhere else.

 

[BazBall21]

Philander's RPI is below 20. Very easy for a no8 to get an inflated average because they will end up with hopeless tailenders a lot. The ability to score runs independently is important once you're not batting with a proper batsman.

I think Wasim Akram and Ray Lindwall were slightly better batsmen than Philander and they were bowers that could bat rather than proper bowling all rounders. Hadlee and Pollock were bowling all rounders.

 

[capt_Luffy]

I would disagree re Akram and Lindwall. Philander also had decidedly tougher home conditions. Averages 30 vs both Australia and England.

 

[BazBall21]

I didn't thought so much before saying lots, geez. Though his away record is hardly special except WI anywhere else.

His away record isn't great. Though a considerably better player in alien conditions than Philander.

 

[BazBall21]

I would disagree re Akram and Lindwall. Philander also had decidedly tougher home conditions.

Decidedly tougher home conditions than Wasim, not Lindwall.

 

[capt_Luffy]

Agree his away record isn't great. Though a considerably better player in alien conditions than Philander.

Yeah just not nearly as good in the familiar ones.

Decidedly tougher home conditions than Wasim, not Lindwall.

I don't think post War Australia when Lindwall played was as bad as SA in the 2010s. Infact, the late 1940s were a batting heaven like no else.

 

[BazBall21]

Yeah just not nearly as good in the familiar ones.

I don't think post War Australia when Lindwall played was as bad as SA in the 2010s. Infact, the late 1940s were a batting heaven like no else.

I think bowlers in general quite frequently have the more tantalising performance thresholds in their favoured conditions because a team ultimately needs to take 20 wickets to win. That is a good point in Philander's favour as he could run riot more than most when there was assistance for lateral movement, but it's not exclusive to just Philander&Gooch.

And opening in England (frequently against WI& Australia) isn't exactly easy so I wouldn't say Gooch's home record is an ideal assessment of how clinical/devastating he was in favourable conditions.

 

[capt_Luffy]

I think bowlers in general quite frequently have the more tantalising performance thresholds in their favoured conditions because a team ultimately needs to take 20 wickets to win. That is a good point in Philander's favour as he could run riot more than most when there was assistance for lateral movement, but it's not exclusive to just Philander&Gooch.

And opening in England (frequently against WI& Australia) isn't exactly easy so I wouldn't necessarily say Gooch's home record is an ideal assessment of how clinical/devastating he was in favourable conditions.

Fair point, but his away record is genuinely mediocre except WI. I expected him to have a great record in SC, especially given the runs he pumped vs India (mostly thought of the 456 match); so was a little taken aback there.

 

[BazBall21]

Fair point, but his away record is genuinely mediocre except WI. I expected him to have a great record in SC, especially given the runs he pumped vs India (mostly thought of the 456 match); so was a little taken aback there.

Good player of spin if not elite. Some of his scope in Asia comes from a couple of ODI classics.

Got a couple of rough calls in Pakistan (1987) and suffered severe food poisoning on the shambolic 90s India tour though he could have done better in Pakistan and he isn't the type to make excuses.