• Welcome to the Cricket Web forums, one of the biggest forums in the world dedicated to cricket.

    You are currently viewing our boards as a guest which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our free community you will have access to post topics, respond to polls, upload content and access many other special features. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free so please, join the Cricket Web community today!

    If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact us.

Jacques Kallis vs Dale Steyn

Who is the greater test cricketer

  • Total voters
    32
kyear2

kyear2

International Coach
The comparison between Sobers and the Don on no way is aligned between Hutton and Stokes.

It's actually ridiculous.
 
S

subshakerz

Hall of Fame Member
kyear2 said:
If we're going to drop it to Warne level, I can agree with it.

Also don't see the big diffeneces between Warne's level and Root's tbh.
Click to expand...
They are the same, they are useful in their secondary skill. So if you are fine with Warne you should be fine with Root, not needing Kallis who is just a plus.

kyear2 said:
A lousy 5th bowler is a liability and would release pressure, causing the changing up of rotations and the extension of spells for the front line guys, potentially blunting their effectiveness.

Having 3 guys in your slip cordon the equivalent of bunnies would also equally ensure you can't win matches, especially anything approaching relatively equal encounters.
Click to expand...
Sure but notice how you avoid the bunny tail vs. poor 5th bowler direct comparison.
 
kyear2

kyear2

International Coach
subshakerz said:
They are the same, they are useful in their secondary skill. So if you are fine with Warne you should be fine with Root, not needing Kallis who is just a plus.


Sure but notice how you avoid the bunny tail vs. poor 5th bowler direct comparison.
Click to expand...
Yes I was actually agreeing with you, don't know why you're arguing, but Kallis is also a better batsman and slip fielder than Root, so would go with him with no drop off. Get it???

And you made the argument for your side, I made the argument for mine. Why would I make the argument for yours? Don't see you making the argument for mine.

A well rounded team benefits (if not requires) from having all 3 supplementary skills, something you've actively refused to acknowledge.

If I have a great team and could only have one, I know which I deem to be the most vital for success.

But yeah, a non detrimental 5th bowler is a absolute must, a full bunny tail should be avoided if at all possible and a Pakistan level cordon is equally non acceptable and would cost wins and hurt the team.

Though I would say that if I were offended Steyn, Murali, Bumrah and McGrath as my bowling attack tomorrow I would take it in a heart beat, so would you.
 
S

subshakerz

Hall of Fame Member
kyear2 said:
But yeah, a non detrimental 5th bowler is a absolute must, a full bunny tail should be avoided if at all possible and a Pakistan level cordon is equally non acceptable and would cost wins and hurt the team.
Click to expand...
Which is the worst, for the record?
 
kyear2

kyear2

International Coach
capt_Luffy said:
Hutton and Stokes and Don and Sobers have equal gap in their batting.
Click to expand...
If you believe that then you have no concept of context or the sport.

But would explain some of the statements that are thrown around that makes no sense.

But back to the point, the arguments made for Kallis over Steyn (which I disagree with in this very specific instance, while acknowledging that Kallis actually had a major impact on Steyn's success) is identical to the one that I made.

And again, because I have to repeat these things, I'm not saying Sobers is better, I'm saying the arguments have parallels.

Steyn is a top 4 bowler and Kallis a top 15 batsman, a test standard 5th bowler and an elite slip. Steyn is upper tier elite in his primary skill and Kallis isn't, and bowlers are a tiny bit more important than batsmen, the combination puts him ahead for me.

Yes there's a step up, but on both sides.

Bradman is the GOAT batsman, Sobers is a top 3 or 4 elite ATG batsman of all time, a test standard 4th bowler and an top tier elite ATG slip.
 
kyear2

kyear2

International Coach
Ohh, and how about....

Test standard
World class
Great
All time great
Pantheon / Elite ATG

Sound better than the ATVG nonsense. Don't know if elite should be between world class and great though, don't think so though.
 
capt_Luffy

capt_Luffy

Cricketer Of The Year
kyear2 said:
If you believe that then you have no concept of context or the sport.

But would explain some of the statements that are thrown around that makes no sense.

But back to the point, the arguments made for Kallis over Steyn (which I disagree with in this very specific instance, while acknowledging that Kallis actually had a major impact on Steyn's success) is identical to the one that I made.

And again, because I have to repeat these things, I'm not saying Sobers is better, I'm saying the arguments have parallels.

Steyn is a top 4 bowler and Kallis a top 15 batsman, a test standard 5th bowler and an elite slip. Steyn is upper tier elite in his primary skill and Kallis isn't, and bowlers are a tiny bit more important than batsmen, the combination puts him ahead for me.

Yes there's a step up, but on both sides.

Bradman is the GOAT batsman, Sobers is a top 3 or 4 elite ATG batsman of all time, a test standard 4th bowler and an top tier elite ATG slip.
Click to expand...
Just the difference is the distance between Steyn as a bowler and Kallis as a batsman, which isn't really much. But goddamn, someone is delusional as hell if they think that applies to Sobers and Don. As I said, Don is just that ahead, as much Hutton is to Stokes. Think most people will agree if they really think about it for 5 minutes.
 
kyear2

kyear2

International Coach
subshakerz said:
Which is the worst, for the record?
Click to expand...
Why are you always looking for an argument?

Which hurts a team the most depends on the level of team and where their weaknesses are.

We all see the game differently, Imran is your hero, sport and country and as such you see lower order batting as the ultimate secondary skill.

I grew up watching the great WI and Australia teams and subsequently the SA teams, those teams had ATG bowlers and equally great cordons that contributed to their wins more than lower order batting or 5th bowlers.

I should probably stop there, but against my better judgement I'll try to answer your question.

A slip cordon (as a unit) to me is more important than a 5th bowler, which in turn is on par with having a good 8 & 9. Why on par you ask, because the 5th blower plays their role if they take wickets or not, while they help maintain the rotation and aren't a liability getting taken apart or releasing pressure. Lower order batsmen are by definition inconsistent and their contribution is less reliable, not less important. Just by bowling their overs the 5th bowler play their role... the 8&9 have to actually score runs to play theirs.

It gets much more complicated, but I'll end there. Does that make any sense to you?
 
Last edited:
kyear2

kyear2

International Coach
capt_Luffy said:
Just the difference is the distance between Steyn as a bowler and Kallis as a batsman, which isn't really much. But goddamn, someone is delusional as hell if they think that applies to Sobers and Don. As I said, Don is just that ahead, as much Hutton is to Stokes. Think most people will agree if they really think about it for 5 minutes.
Click to expand...
And I think that's it's idiotic to think that the gap between Bradman and the next set of guys, ie Tendulkar, Sobers, Richards and Hobbs is equal to that of Hutton and Stokes is idiotic.

But apparently you believe that Bradman would have averaged 100 in the 80's or 90's.
 
S

subshakerz

Hall of Fame Member
kyear2 said:
Why are you always looking for an argument?

Which hurts a team the most depends on the level of team and where their weaknesses are.

We all see the game differently, Imran is your hero, sport and country and as such you see lower order batting as the ultimate secondary skill.

I grew up watching the great WI and Australia teams and subsequently the SA teams, those teams had ATG bowlers and equally great cordons that. Contributed to their wins more than lower order batting or 5th bowlers.

I should probably stop there, but against my better judgement I'll try to answer your question.

A slip cordon (as a unit) to me is more important than a 5th bowler, which in turn is on par with having a good 8 & 9. Why on par you ask, because the 5th blower played their role if they take wickets or not, while they help maintain the rotation and aren't a liability getting taken apart or releasing pressure. Lower order batsmen are by nature inconsistent and their contribution is less reliable, not less important. Just by bowling their overs the 5th bowler plays their role, the 8&9 have to actually score runs to play theirs.

It gets much more complicated, but I'll end there. Does that make any sense to you?
Click to expand...
Sure
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Top