Thala_0710
First Class Debutant
Yeah accounted for that, pushes it closer but still Steyn for me
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Jacques Kallis vs Dale Steyn
- Thread starter PlayerComparisons
- Start date
Coronis
International Coach
What about his captaincy?
Thala_0710
First Class Debutant
Kallis captained in what, 2-3 tests? Not really a big factor for me
capt_Luffy
Cricketer Of The Year
That pushes Steyn higher actually.....
Coronis
International Coach
Idr Steyn captaining SA to an innings win over Australia tbh.
capt_Luffy
Cricketer Of The Year
Now now, I don't think even you believe Kallis was a particularly good captain, do you??
Coronis
International Coach
Better than Steyn for sure.
kyear2
International Coach
Ummmm, having a strong # 8 isn't a need for a strong team either. You can make so with Warne or Lindwall. Having a viable 5th bowler is a massive plus. It avoids having the under qualified guy who comes in and releases pressure and gives away runs.
And this is very much true because....
This isn't even touch the fact that Kallis was one of the greatest slip fielders of all time, and manned the critical 2nd slip position for a team dependent on fast bowling and wickets taken behind the stumps.
With all of that being said, Steyn is my 4th rated bowler of all time while Kallis is my 14th rated batsman. As I've said I find his catching to be even more valuable than his bowling, but even those two can't bridge the gap between 4th vs 14th in primary discipline.
It has however, highlighted some inconsistent arguments that are prevalent and pretty main stream on the forum.
subshakerz
Hall of Fame Member
Having a strong no.8.and a strong 5th bowler are both plusses.
I do see more harm though relatively by having a weak tail versus a weak 5th bowler.
kyear2
International Coach
I have never said it wasn't a plus. I've always said it wasn't a need. So basically the same argument.
Think not having either can be detriments depending on the strengths of the team, don't think either hurts a team as much as having a weak cordon, but we'll never agree on that.
All 3 can have trickle down effects. But I've only seen teams win consistently (in all conditions) without two of them.
kyear2
International Coach
What I will say in summary is this.
No one values the 3 in 1 guys like Sobers, Kallis, Hammond, Simpson etc... than I do
But how can a top 4 bowler be topped, when it's against a top 15 batsman.
But the questionable bit comes when the same folk who would vote Kallis ahead, wouldn't give consideration to a top 3 / 4 batsman, who was a better bowler and slip fielder.
No one values the 3 in 1 guys like Sobers, Kallis, Hammond, Simpson etc... than I do
But how can a top 4 bowler be topped, when it's against a top 15 batsman.
But the questionable bit comes when the same folk who would vote Kallis ahead, wouldn't give consideration to a top 3 / 4 batsman, who was a better bowler and slip fielder.
subshakerz
Hall of Fame Member
Having a decent no.8 of Warne or Lee level is a need. You can't have four tailenders. Having a part time bowler like Root is a need.
Similarly, having a no.8. in an ATG XI of at or near AR level is a need.
I think it's more likely a tail of bunnies is a bigger drawback than a lousy part time 5th bowler.
subshakerz
Hall of Fame Member
First mistake is putting Kallis in the top 15 bats.
Otherwise there are less bowlers than bats anyways so a top 15 bat comes to around 7 or 8 among bowlers, and the rest is his AR skills that make him superior.
Thankfully Kallis isn't that good a bat.
kyear2
International Coach
Well I guess I kinda disagree with almost everything here, from ranking to equivalency. So really not much to discuss.
capt_Luffy
Cricketer Of The Year
By "wouldn't give consideration" do you mean almost universally acknowledge as the 2nd Greatest Test cricketer of All Time??
kyear2
International Coach
If we're going to drop it to Warne level, I can agree with it.
Also don't see the big diffeneces between Warne's level and Root's tbh.
A lousy 5th bowler is a liability and would release pressure, causing the changing up of rotations and the extension of spells for the front line guys, potentially blunting their effectiveness.
Having 3 guys in your slip cordon the equivalent of bunnies would also equally ensure you can't win matches, especially anything approaching relatively equal encounters.
kyear2
International Coach
Yes, but not going down that road again today.
capt_Luffy
Cricketer Of The Year
No no no, you can't just bring it up and back down. Defend it. Give one logical reasoning for us to consider Sobers above Don.
kyear2
International Coach
Rankings is what we're basing this entire conversation on though.
And again, I'm not saying Sobers is no. 1, but it's arguable.
Imagine if you will someone who is in the upper pantheon on the level of Tendulkar or Richards, but who could catch like Hooper or Waugh Jr, who is also a legit no. 4 bowler.
The same arguments being used here, aptly applies.
Again, all I'm saying is that the argument isn't laughable, not building a case for it.
capt_Luffy
Cricketer Of The Year
It's laughable once you consider the difference in batting of Don and Sobers is greater than that of SRT and Waugh (Mark, not Steve).
So pretty much as much a case as Stokes have over Hutton.