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Is Ravichandran Ashwin an ATG test bowler?

Is Ravichandran Ashwin an ATG test bowler?

  • Total voters
    75
capt_Luffy

capt_Luffy

Cricketer Of The Year
Thala_0710 said:
Could extend the list upto Waqar/Walsh level for me too, but the issue with O Reilly I have is sample size in test cricket.
Would be interesting to try and list all ATGs in all the categories: (Batsmen, Bowler, All rounder, WKB)
Click to expand...
I would try (this is more so by judging players in only their respective eras, not across, which is probably more futile. Considering FC as well for pre WWI players):

Batsmen:

  1. KS Ranjitsinhji
  2. Victor Trumper
  3. Jack Hobbs
  4. Herbert Sutcliffe
  5. Wally Hammond
  6. Don Bradman
  7. George Headley
  8. Len Hutton
  9. Dudley Nourse
  10. Everton Weekes
  11. Ken Barrington
  12. Graeme Pollock
  13. Greg Chappell
  14. Sunil Gavaskar
  15. Viv Richards
  16. Allan Border
  17. Javed Miandad
  18. Steve Waugh
  19. Sachin Tendulkar
  20. Brian Lara
  21. Ricky Ponting
  22. Rahul Dravid
  23. Steve Smith
  24. Joe Root

Bowlers:
  1. Fred Spofforth
  2. Sydney Barnes
  3. Clarrie Grimmett
  4. Bill O'Reilly
  5. Ray Lindwall
  6. Fred Trueman
  7. Dennis Lillee
  8. Andy Roberts
  9. Michael Holding
  10. Joel Garner
  11. Malcolm Marshall
  12. Courtney Walsh
  13. Curtly Ambrose
  14. Wasim Akram
  15. Waqar Younis
  16. Allan Donald
  17. Shane Warne
  18. Glenn McGrath
  19. Mutthiah Muralitharan
  20. James Anderson
  21. Dale Steyn
  22. Pat Cummins

All-rounders:
  1. WG Grace
  2. Wilfred Rhodes
  3. Aubrey Faulkner
  4. Garry Sobers
  5. Keith Miller
  6. Alan Davidson
  7. Imran Khan
  8. Ian Botham
  9. Kapil Dev
  10. Richard Hadlee
  11. Jacques Kallis
  12. Shaun Pollock
  13. Ravichandran Ashwin

Wicketkeepers:
  1. Jack Blackham
  2. Les Ames
  3. Godfrey Evans
  4. Clyde Walcott
  5. Alan Knott
  6. Ian Healy
  7. Andy Flower
  8. Adam Gilchrist
  9. Kumar Sangakkara

Captains:
  1. Frank Worrell
  2. Richie Benaud

Overall cricketers but not just Test:
  1. Mike Procter
  2. Barry Richards
  3. Vincent van der Bijl
  4. MS Dhoni
  5. AB de Villiers
  6. Virat Kohli
  7. Jasprit Bumrah
 
Last edited:
M

ma1978

International Debutant
capt_Luffy said:
I would try (this is more so by judging players in only their respective eras, not across, which is probably more futile. Considering FC as well for pre WWI players):

Batsmen:

  1. KS Ranjitsinhji
  2. Victor Trumper
  3. Jack Hobbs
  4. Herbert Sutcliffe
  5. Wally Hammond
  6. Don Bradman
  7. George Headley
  8. Len Hutton
  9. Dudley Nourse
  10. Everton Weekes
  11. Ken Barrington
  12. Graeme Pollock
  13. Greg Chappell
  14. Sunil Gavaskar
  15. Viv Richards
  16. Allan Border
  17. Steve Waugh
  18. Javed Miandad
  19. Sachin Tendulkar
  20. Brian Lara
  21. Ricky Ponting
  22. Rahul Dravid
  23. Steve Smith
  24. Joe Root

Bowlers:

  1. Malcolm Marshall
  2. Glenn McGrath
  3. Sydney Barnes
  4. Mutthiah Muralitharan
  5. Shane Warne
  6. Dale Steyn
  7. Curtly Ambrose
  8. Bill O'Reilly
  9. Wasim Akram
  10. Allan Donald
  11. Joel Garner
  12. Dennis Lillee
  13. Ray Lindwall
  14. Michael Holding
  15. Fred Trueman
  16. Waqar Younis
  17. Courtney Walsh
  18. Pat Cummins
  19. Andy Roberts
  20. Clarrie Grimmett
  21. James Anderson
  22. Fred Spofforth

All-rounders:
  1. WG Grace
  2. Wilfred Rhodes
  3. Aubrey Faulkner
  4. Garry Sobers
  5. Keith Miller
  6. Alan Davidson
  7. Imran Khan
  8. Ian Botham
  9. Kapil Dev
  10. Richard Hadlee
  11. Jacques Kallis
  12. Shaun Pollock
  13. Ravichandran Ashwin

Wicketkeepers:
  1. Jack Blackham
  2. Les Ames
  3. Godfrey Evans
  4. Clyde Walcott
  5. Alan Knott
  6. Ian Healy
  7. Andy Flower
  8. Adam Gilchrist
  9. Kumar Sangakkara

Captains:
  1. Frank Worrell
  2. Richie Benaud

Overall cricketers but not just Test:
  1. Mike Procter
  2. Barry Richards
  3. Vincent van der Bijl
  4. MS Dhoni
  5. AB de Villiers
  6. Virat Kohli
  7. Jasprit Bumrah
Click to expand...
I really cannot argue with this list. Maybe add Joe Root. But it’s comprehensive and quality
 
T

Thala_0710

State 12th Man
ATGs- (only test cricket and post WW1)

Batsmen:
Bradman, Sachin, Hobbs, Lara, Sobers, Richards, Smith, Gavaskar, Hutton, Hammond, Sutcliffe, Ponting, Chappell, Border, Waugh, Kallis, Dravid

Bowlers:
Marshall, Mcgrath, Hadlee, Warne, Murali, Steyn, Imran, Ambrose, Akram, Lillee, Donald, Garner, Holding

All rounders:
Miller, Botham, Kapil, Pollock (not including ones who get in their primary disciplines like Sobers)

WKB:
Gilchrist, Sangakkara, Ames, Walcott

A total of 38 ATGs seems reasonable.
 
Last edited:
Coronis

Coronis

International Coach
Dunno how anyone can rate Trumper an ATG and Hill not. Their raw stats are ridiculously close in both FC and Test.
 
capt_Luffy

capt_Luffy

Cricketer Of The Year
Coronis said:
Dunno how anyone can rate Trumper an ATG and Hill not. Their raw stats are ridiculously close in both FC and Test.
Click to expand...
I know you won't like it, and Hill was really close; on adding a further 10 cricketers, he would be in (Hill, Shrewsbury, Compton, Younis, Bedser, Laker, Rabada, Rice, Jadeja, Waite). The difference was really in their perception at the time. Since neither really has much surviving match footages, rating is a big criteria for me to judge pre WWI players. Also, Trumper do averages 2 runs higher in FC. That's the difference between Tendulkar and Dravid's average.
 
Coronis

Coronis

International Coach
capt_Luffy said:
I know you won't like it, and Hill was really close; on adding a further 10 cricketers, he would be in (Hill, Shrewsbury, Compton, Younis, Bedser, Laker, Rabada, Rice, Jadeja, Waite). The difference was really in their perception at the time. Since neither really has much surviving match footages, rating is a big criteria for me to judge pre WWI players. Also, Trumper do averages 2 runs higher in FC. That's the difference between Tendulkar and Dravid's average.
Click to expand...
He averages exactly one run more, which over a span of 250+ matches and 400+ innings for each of them, is extremely insignificant.

Both also have crazy similar catches in tests and FC.
 
capt_Luffy

capt_Luffy

Cricketer Of The Year
Coronis said:
He averages exactly one run more, which over a span of 250+ matches and 400+ innings for each of them, is extremely insignificant.

Both also have crazy similar catches in tests and FC.
Click to expand...
As I said, extremely similar stats. But as far as I read, Trumper's high ratings actually comes from scoring runs in sticky English pitches, somewhere Hill wasn't really great at. Instead, Hill was atleast equal to him in harder Australian ones. Since the former was much more difficult to score at, I believe Trumper gets rated so highly.
 
Coronis

Coronis

International Coach
capt_Luffy said:
As I said, extremely similar stats. But as far as I read, Trumper's high ratings actually comes from scoring runs in sticky English pitches, somewhere Hill wasn't really great at. Instead, Hill was atleast equal to him in harder Australian ones. Since the former was much more difficult to score at, I believe Trumper gets rated so highly.
Click to expand...
Yet Hill has a better test record in and against England.
 
capt_Luffy

capt_Luffy

Cricketer Of The Year
Coronis said:
Yet Hill has a better test record in England.
Click to expand...
In Test he does. But I don't think I have to tell you that back then FC was almost equivalent to Tests, both in quality and perception by critics, players and fans alike. You know as well as I do that Trumper gets rated such highly for his Magnum Opus Wet English summer of 1902. In short, Hill was as good as Trumper in a good wicket, but Trumper was atleast considered otherworldly/the best ever, in bad ones.
 
Coronis

Coronis

International Coach
capt_Luffy said:
In Test he does. But I don't think I have to tell you that back then FC was almost equivalent to Tests, both in quality and perception by critics, players and fans alike. You know as well as I do that Trumper gets rated such highly for his Magnum Opus Wet English summer of 1902. In short, Hill was as good as Trumper in a good wicket, but Trumper was atleast considered otherworldly/the best ever, in bad ones.
Click to expand...
Its always seemed to me he’s overrated on the basis of that single season.
 
capt_Luffy

capt_Luffy

Cricketer Of The Year
Coronis said:
Its always seemed to me he’s overrated on the basis of that single season.
Click to expand...
Might be atleast partially, since he was an extremely attacking, beautiful to watch batsman. He also suffered from health issues afterwards, denting his consistency. I still think he was the clear better of the two, the Tendulkar to Hill's Dravid, but yeah, there is definitely a strong case for them to be equal given you don't value peer ratings.
 
Slifer

Slifer

International Captain
ATG: (Putting the stats aside) Sure in for their countries all time XI and on the short list of an atg world XI. Some countries have players who might be left out their XI due to competing ATGs. Every Tom Dick and Harry can't be an atg. It should be exclusive. My list since you asked:

Australia: Don, G Chappell, Lillee, McGrath, O'Reilly, Warne, Gilchrist, Border

England: Hammond, Sutcliffe, Hobbs, Verity, Trueman, Hutton, Laker, Barnes, Knott

WI: Headley, Sobers, Lara, Viv, Marshall, Ambrose

Pak: Wasim, Imran

Ind: Sunil, Sachin

SL: Murali

RSA: Donald, Kallis, Steyn

Nz: Hadlee

Players I'm on the fence with: Dravid, Ponting, Sangakkara, S Pollock, Lindwall, Davidson, pre ban South Africans, Miandad, Barrington, Miller, Grimmett, Waugh S, AB DeVilliers etc.

Excluded current players. But of those who've been around a bit potential current future atgs would be: Smith, Kane, Root, Kohli, Ashwin, Jadeja (I'm serious), Rabada, Cummins, Pant, Bumrah.
 
kyear2

kyear2

International Coach
Thala_0710 said:
Let's count:
1. Marshall
2. McGrath
3. Hadlee
4. Murali
5. Warne
6. Steyn
7. Imran
8. Ambrose
9. Akram
10. Lillee
11. Donald
12. Garner
13. Holding (maybe, not sure)
Barnes could make this but I prefer not to rate pre WW1 players with more modern ones.
How many do you have?
Click to expand...
Looks about right
 
kyear2

kyear2

International Coach
capt_Luffy said:
Okay, I have many more:

  1. Marshall
  2. McGrath
  3. Hadlee
  4. Barnes
  5. Murali
  6. Warne
  7. Steyn
  8. Imran
  9. Ambrose
  10. O'Reilly
  11. Akram
  12. Donald
  13. Garner
  14. Lillee
  15. Lindwall
  16. Holding
  17. Trueman
  18. Davidson
  19. Waqar
  20. Walsh
  21. Cummins
  22. Pollock
  23. Roberts
  24. Ashwin
  25. Grimmett
  26. Anderson
  27. Spofforth



I actually have O'Reilly in the same tier as Warne and Murali.
Click to expand...
Wayyyy too long imo
 
S

subshakerz

Hall of Fame Member
Coronis said:
You’re right I forgot about the “looking good in staged photos” criteria.
Click to expand...
No. It's all how they are rated in their playing days. An ATG should be recognized at least as that sort of material in their prime. They need a bit of something special.
 
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