Andy Flower vs Alan Knott

[PlayerComparisons]

Compare them as cricketers, not wicketkeeper batsmen

 

[Prince EWS]

I'd rather have Knott is most circumstances if whoever I picked had to keep, but in most teams throughout history I'd replace a specialist bat with Flower rather than the keeper so his subpar keeping isn't a factor. Flower better on the criteria of who'd offer more to the average team IMO - on batting alone.

 

[kyear2]

I have Knott as an ATG cricketer, not Flower.

 

[capt_Luffy]

Pretty much what PEWS said, but forced to chose, I would rather have Flower keeping in most teams post 70s as well.

 

[kyear2]

Pretty much what PEWS said, but forced to chose, I would rather have Flower keeping in most teams post 70s as well.

Yes, but you also have a rather distinctive view point and perspective with regards to the value of keepers.

I want my bowlers happy and most of the catches taken.

 

[capt_Luffy]

Yes, but you also have a rather distinctive view point and perspective with regards to the value of keepers.

I want my bowlers happy and most of the catches taken.

I want my team to win.

 

[kyear2]

I want my team to win.

Where has it been imperially proven that your approach leads to that?

Dujon was capable of some fantastic innings, while pulling in everything, Knott had some clutch innings.

At some point you can pick specialists based on their primary skills.

Not to mention the op consistently rewording polls to get the desired results.

 

[capt_Luffy]

Where has it been imperially proven that your approach leads to that?

Dujon was capable of some fantastic innings, while pulling in everything, Knott had some clutch innings.

At some point you can pick specialists based on their primary skills.

Not to mention the op consistently rewording polls to get the desired results.

I think this poll was definitely warranted but will ignore any OP related talks for now.

You know full well that saying Dujon or Knott could play a clutch knock is like saying Dev had his moments with the bat when comparing with Worrell?

And when was it proven again that my approach don't lead to victory. Ofcourse you can point to things like Bairstow dropping catch or KAkmal, but they never made up those runs with the bat. Pant did. Literally most matches Zim won was due to Flower.

 

[kyear2]

I think this poll was definitely warranted but will ignore any OP related talks for now.

You know full well that saying Dujon or Knott could play a clutch knock is like saying Dev had his moments with the bat when comparing with Worrell?

And when was it proven again that my approach don't lead to victory. Ofcourse you can point to things like Bairstow dropping catch or KAkmal, but they never made up those runs with the bat. Pant did. Literally most matches Zim won was due to Flower.

Why, because the other one didn't go his way?

You can't make up for dropping a guy who goes one to play a crucial knock. Even if you score runs, so did he, the game is extended and your chances decreased.

You drop Bradman and he scores a double (as he did to us), there's no making up for that. You dun ****ed up.

 

[capt_Luffy]

Why, because the other one didn't go his way?

You can't make up for dropping a guy who goes one to play a crucial knock. Even if you score runs, so did he, the game is extended and your chances decreased.

You drop Bradman and he scores a double (as he did to us), there's no making up for that. You dun ****ed up.

No, because many didn't rate his keeping and considered his batting to be superior alone.

I mean, you yourself can go on and score a double.

 

[kyear2]

No, because many didn't rate his keeping and considered his batting to be superior alone.

I mean, you yourself can go on and score a double.

The game's already lost. Isn't it better not to drop the GOAT, I don't see how this is hard.

Not to mention that there's no guarantee than your guys then scores a double.

 

[capt_Luffy]

The game's already lost. Isn't it better not to drop the GOAT, I don't see how this is hard.

Not to mention that there's no guarantee than your guys then scores a double.

I mean, there's the odd chance that he grabs the GOAT; given no guarantee for his dropping as well.
And no the game isn't loss. That 200 could very well come in a successful chase.

 

[kyear2]

I mean, there's the odd chance that he grabs the GOAT; given no guarantee for his dropping as well.
And no the game isn't loss. That 200 could very well come in a successful chase.

Your being deliberately obtuse. Of you pick a substandard keeper, there's always a chance of missed chances, with an exceptional one, there's there's the greater possiblity of half chances being taken or being created.

I'll keep saying this this the end of time, Murray, Dujon, Lloyd, Richards and co behind the wicket won us more games than any tail end or lower order rear guard actions. Same for Australia and their guys. It's crucial to the success of your bowlers.

You could do a hundred polls on who should keep in a 2nd all time squad, Knott is beating Flower, Pant and Dhoni in everyone.

If you had to ask your bolwers who they would prefer, it's the safer guy. Yes the position is the only real designated, must have all round spot, but there has to be some balance towards you primary job as well.

And let's not pretend 32 is a bad average

 

[capt_Luffy]

Your being deliberately obtuse. Of you pick a substandard keeper, there's always a chance of missed chances, with an exceptional one, there's there's the greater possiblity of half chances being taken or being created.

I'll keep saying this this the end of time, Murray, Dujon, Lloyd, Richards and co behind the wicket won us more games than any tail end or lower order rear guard actions. Same for Australia and their guys. It's crucial to the success of your bowlers.

You could do a hundred polls on who should keep in a 2nd all time squad, Knott is beating Flower, Pant and Dhoni in everyone.

If you had to ask your bolwers who they would prefer, it's the safer guy. Yes the position is the only real designated, must have all round spot, but there has to be some balance towards you primary job as well.

And let's not pretend 32 is a bad average

Not like a good keeper can drop a catch, right (PS: Gilchrist 2005 Ashes)?? This tomfoolery I am doing just because of you comparing their batting btw, as taking a great batsman also has a chance of him scoring higher, much more runs.

Definitely they did!! I wonder if that could have anything to do with Flower being an ATVG top order batsman and not a tailender......

Might be, Doesn't changes ****. Though I won't keep a Sangakkara upset off the book.

I mean ofcourse they will. Warne asked Darren Berry over Gilchrist. Now we should also asks the batsmen who would they prefer, right?

And let's not pretend 32 is comparable to 51.

 

[peterhrt]

Christopher Martin-Jenkins reckoned that Flower's wicket-keeping was OK but that captaincy affected it adversely. The same thing happened when Jock Cameron skippered South Africa, and also when Bob Taylor took over as captain of Derbyshire. Taylor always considered that wicket-keeping came first and gave up the captaincy.

 

[DrWolverine]

There is zero evidence to suggest Andy Flower was not a good keeper but some people suggest as if he is Kamran Akmal.

 

[DrWolverine]

People who pick Adam Gilchrist over a pure wicket keeping genius like Bob Taylor think someone like Andy Flower shouldn’t be picked for his batting

 

[Thala_0710]

Even without the keeping I'd probably go Flower. With the keeping (however poor it was), this is a no contest. However as a wicket keeper batsman I'd take Knott

 

[Johan]

There is zero evidence to suggest Andy Flower was not a good keeper but some people suggest as if he is Kamran Akmal.

People who pick Adam Gilchrist over a pure wicket keeping genius like Bob Taylor think someone like Andy Flower shouldn’t be picked for his batting

Everyone who saw Flower doesn't rate him much, Gilly just gives you more, he averages 47 to Flower's 51, their run output is roughly the same and he was a great keeper proven to both pace and spin and strikes at Sehwag esque speeds, it's really a no brainer.

 

[capt_Luffy]

Everyone who saw Flower doesn't rate him much, Gilly just gives you more, he averages 47 to Flower's 51, their run output is roughly the same and he was a great keeper proven to both pace and spin and strikes at Sehwag esque speeds, it's really a no brainer.

The convo is much more after Gilly for me.