India Xi vs Pakistan Xi (from 1970s)

[Slifer]

Waqar as well. Absolute beast. No Indian fast bowler outside of Bumrah is at the level of Pakistan. Pakistan has probably the best bowling attack of any country if we talking about this type of fantasy matchup taking place at every player’s peak.

At peak then yes and a one off then probably yes. It's close with the other fast bowling power houses but Akram is an ace no other team has quite frankly. And that's before including Saqlain.

 

[ma1978]

If they are so good why were the results so average

 

[Coronis]

If they are so good why were the results so average

Well Imran and Shoaib obviously weren’t peaking with Wasim and Waqar.

During Wasim and Waqar’s peaks (I’m using 1990-1995) they had a record of 20-12-11 which was pretty damn good, despite their batting being overall worse than any other team besides NZ and SL. They also didn’t have much support at that time, but still were the best bowling attack.

 

[capt_Luffy]

I think it's also important that India's Top batsmen have pretty Great record against Pakistan. Like Sehwag just scored way too many runs at a really high average, Dravid has some sublime performances against them (besides putting 78 in there) and Gavaskar is the best batsman ever in/against Pakistan. Even Tendulkar, who is of relatively lower note, debuted against these 3 pacers as a 16 years old and did reasonably well and in his only other series played the best knock of his career.

 

[Slifer]

I think it's also important that India's Top batsmen have pretty Great record against Pakistan. Like Sehwag just scored way too many runs at a really high average, Dravid has some sublime performances against them (besides putting 78 in there) and Gavaskar is the best batsman ever in/against Pakistan. Even Tendulkar, who is of relatively lower note, debuted against these 3 pacers as a 16 years old and did reasonably well and in his only other series played the best knock of his career.

Really Sehwag? Did he even face Wasim or Waqar? And Sachin came out distinctly second best overall vs the Ws. Dravid faced Shoaib that's it, he faced nothing remotely close to the level of pace and skill as the Ws + Imran. India's top batsmen having good records vs Pakistani pace has everything to do with playing them when they had much less stellar attacks (I'd say the same about Lara as well b4 anyone thinks I'm biased). I'll give you Sunil though, he was excellent vs challenging Pakistani pace (and bowling overall).

 

[Slifer]

If they are so good why were the results so average

Pakistan were the 3rd best team of the 90s. That's no mean feat. The teams above them ie Australia and RSA had comparable bowling but better batting and especially fielding. No big mysteries there.

 

[capt_Luffy]

Really Sehwag? Did he even face Wasim or Waqar? And Sachin came out distinctly second best overall vs the Ws. Dravid faced Shoaib that's it, he faced nothing remotely close to the level of pace and skill as the Ws + Imran. India's top batsmen having good records vs Pakistani pace has everything to do with playing them when they had much less stellar attacks (I'd say the same about Lara as well b4 anyone thinks I'm biased). I'll give you Sunil though, he was excellent vs challenging Pakistani pace (and bowling overall).

Sachin faced the Ws in 3 matches after his debut one. Had his Greatest innings in that (though against mainly Saqlain, as it was spinner's haven). He might be second to them in ODIs, but definitely not in Tests, unless you count his debut. Will give you Sehwag though, but he averages freaking 91 both home and away against Pakistan, and faced decent attacks of Shoaib, Asif and Kaneria. That's atleast worth something. Dravid has Greatest innings ever in Pakistan and averages 50+. Moreover, I think it's also interesting that India's 3 best bats all have their arguably Greatest innings against Pakistan.

 

[ma1978]

Pakistan were the 3rd best team of the 90s. That's no mean feat. The teams above them ie Australia and RSA had comparable bowling but better batting and especially fielding. No big mysteries there.

Yay. Third. This is a team that has never won a test series in Australia. Hasn’t won a match in god knows how long. Hasn’t drawn a series in SA. It’s a great team on paper and has underperformed in practice.

 

[ma1978]

And don’t mistake me, I loved a lot of the late 80s / 90s Pakistani team but to say the XI is better is analysis by checklist vs seeing what actually happened on the field

 

[Slifer]

Sachin faced the Ws in 3 matches after his debut one. Had his Greatest innings in that (though against mainly Saqlain, as it was spinner's haven). He might be second to them in ODIs, but definitely not in Tests, unless you count his debut. Will give you Sehwag though, but he averages freaking 91 both home and away against Pakistan, and faced decent attacks of Shoaib, Asif and Kaneria. That's atleast worth something. Dravid has Greatest innings ever in Pakistan and averages 50+. Moreover, I think it's also interesting that India's 3 best bats all have their arguably Greatest innings against Pakistan.

Of course we're counting his debut series, the same that we do with every other cricketer. He had his greatest knock vs them but did very little esle in the 3 other tests. Make no mistake, I expect the indian batting to have their moments but I expect inzi and co to do better vs Shami and co than India vs Imran and the Ws. Much more so on a neutral wicket.

 

[Slifer]

Yay. Third. This is a team that has never won a test series in Australia. Hasn’t won a match in god knows how long. Hasn’t drawn a series in SA. It’s a great team on paper and has underperformed in practice.

Wouldn't it make more sense to compare them head to head? In which case it's close with Pakistan having the slight edge.

 

[ma1978]

Wouldn't it make more sense to compare them head to head? In which case it's close with Pakistan having the slight edge.

Everyone in Pakistan’s team has played India, a lot of India’s team has never played Pakistan.
The point is everyone is saying Pakistan’s bowling would destroy India but in reality other than Imran that has not always been the case. They are great bowlers but it’s never been a demolition.

 

[capt_Luffy]

Everyone in Pakistan’s team has played India, a lot of India’s team has never played Pakistan.
The point is everyone is saying Pakistan’s bowling would destroy India but in reality other than Imran that has not always been the case. They are great bowlers but it’s never been a demolition.

Imran himself was at his worst in India and Gavaskar more than stood his ground in Pakistan.

 

[capt_Luffy]

Of course we're counting his debut series, the same that we do with every other cricketer. He had his greatest knock vs them but did very little esle in the 3 other tests. Make no mistake, I expect the indian batting to have their moments but I expect inzi and co to do better vs Shami and co than India vs Imran and the Ws. Much more so on a neutral wicket.

I think Sachin is a bit different, as he was 16 back then. Had he been 19, I would had agreed to count that. And not really like he did bad. Averaged a respectable 35 with a great 50 with a broken nose. And like, 1 ATG knock in 3 Tests seems really ample to me.
On Indian tracks, I don't think it will be really close with the batting advantage and Ashwin/Jadeja. On neutral tracks, I can see your reasonings, but I will still back this Indian attack.

 

[Slifer]

You'd back this Indian attack on a neutral ground knowing 2/5 of the bowling would be no factor? Fwiw, i doubt either team would blow away the other.

 

[shortpitched713]

India have advantage in almost every aspect, except pace bowling, but that aspect is a big enough gap compared to the others that it carries Pakistan to an overall slight advantage here.

Edit: Pakistan also benefiting greatly by a phenomenon in which their best ever batsmen certainly are good enough to compete, but this was never really the case for their batting lineup as a whole at any given time period. It was always carried by the very best few batsmen.

 

[Slifer]

Yay. Third. This is a team that has never won a test series in Australia. Hasn’t won a match in god knows how long. Hasn’t drawn a series in SA. It’s a great team on paper and has underperformed in practice.

Pakistan drew away to RSA in 1998.

 

[subshakerz]

I still think the batting gap is much bigger and would compensate for it. If the batting gaps and bowling gaps were approximately equal I would go with the bowling team. But here, the batting gap is too big for me. IND has 2 ATGs and 3 batsmen better than all Pak batsman, with the 4th one being approximately equal (slightly behind for me). Sehwag is also easily better than both the openers and Pant/Dhoni, (whoever you go with) is easily better than Rizwan too. Add to that IND have a much superior spin attack too. Wasim and Imran alone wouldn't be able to make up such a gap imo

The batting gap makes more difference on paper than in reality.

The problem is that India don't have the bowling firepower to take advantage of the batting gap unless it's in India. All of Pak batsmen are Worldclass and ATVG.

Whereas for Indias bowling, Bumrah still not fully accomplished yet to determine, Kapil and Shami are good but not great, Kumble, Jadeja and Ashwin are major threats in SC mostly. Whereas Pakistan's bowling attack is pure greatness.

India likely win in India in a close battle, and Pakistan everywhere else.

 

[h_hurricane]

It is India clearly.

A full strength Pakistan team is better than a full strength Indian team marginally due to the bowling advantage. However, Pakistan bowlers won't be put to park that often. Imran, for instance played only a little over 60% of the matches between his debut and retirement. Wasim and Waqar less than 80%. If these 2 teams play each other in a 5 test series in each of the 8 established test countries, it will be 40 matches. Imran would probably play around 25(it will be even less if you exclude the matches he played as a pure bat). Wasim and Waqar around 30. The top Indian players like Tendulkar, Gavaskar, Dravid and Kapil would be playing around 37-38 matches. India would be expected to win those additional matches when it's top players are playing and Pakistan's aren't.

 

[centurymaker]

Pakistan were the 3rd best team of the 90s. That's no mean feat. The teams above them ie Australia and RSA had comparable bowling but better batting and especially fielding. No big mysteries there.

No way man. Pakistan were no higher than 4th best, if not 5th best. You are forgetting about West Indies who were the No.1 team in the world till 94/95, which is almost half of the decade.

Pakistan's record at Home -

1995 Lost to SL 2-1
1997 Lost to SA 1-0
1998 Lost to Aus 1-0
1998 Lost to Zim 1-0
1999 Lost to SL 2-1
2000 Lost to Eng 1-0

They lost 6 Test series at home in five years. And they won just 6 Test series at home in the whole decade from 1990 to 2000. In contrast, India lost just one home series in the whole decade, that was in 2000 to SA.

On paper Pakistan "appears" strong but in reality they were often a middling side, based on performances.