Andy Flower vs Alan Knott

[CodeOfWisden]

It's better to have a top class keeper pedestrian than just a pedestrian.

Lets not have any pedestrian.

Replace the pedestrian with a top class batsman.

 

[BazBall21]

Knott I guess. It seems like Flower would have been dubbed an inadequate keeper in a stronger setup according to people who have seen more of his wicket keeping than I have. Helps that Knott wasn't just a specialist wicket keeper. He was a decent batsman.

 

[capt_Luffy]

You looked at 2 highlights and ignored the list hand information and anecdotal evidence to the contrary. Coronis even showed evidence of Kamran Akmal looking pretty good as well.

You don't think that if Flower was as good as those clips indicated, that he wouldn't be in the actual argument with Knott and Gilchrist as the greatest wicketkeeper batsman ever?

Nope. I basically looked at all the evidence I find online, including articles and talked with my father who has seen him keep enough. His keeping seems more than adequate really. I have enough evidence to know how bad Akmal was, had Flower was so bad, Don't you think match reports will be full of such instances and commentators and articles commentating on them?? Can't found any. Even OS said he looked untidy, not dropped much from memory; which seems the large consensus.

I don't know who really is excluding him from that argument. Many people won't like to him Sangakkara in their, others will.

 

[capt_Luffy]

Drop a pedestrian, get Saha in and have Rishabh as a batsman. Sounds familiar?

But what if we don't have any pedestrians? Pant is not dropping much anyways, atleast now. It worked with Sanga because the worst batsman of SL was hardly better than PJ. Arguably even wasn't. Saha was a proper mid 40s batsman in the Ranji trophy, even has a Great 200 in the Duleep Trophy Final; but he massively underperformed with the bat in Tests. When Pant started, that's what kept off for long, being horrible. But even at that phase, he was the one producing that Gabba knock.

 

[Migara]

But what if we don't have any pedestrians? Pant is not dropping much anyways.

There are batsmen who average less than 40 in that side. Drop one of them.

 

[capt_Luffy]

There are batsmen who average less than 40 in that side. Drop one of them.

Currently. But when Saha and Pant overlapped, there weren't. That actually kept Pant off the team for a good amount of time. Wasn't a bad thing though, early Pant was **** behind the stumps. I won't stoop to that level as well.

 

[capt_Luffy]

This is why this argument doesn't track for me.

I've seen Dujon hit crucial knocks, he may not average 40, but when needed more often than not he also came through.

So he's, you can still get that Gabba 90.

You ideally want one, who not only doesn't make mistakes often, but also takes the half chances and creates a few.

If you can get that with a mid 30's average, that's great.

Coronis just gave you two examples from ongoing matches where keeping blunders cost their team opportunities, and your response is, well if they can make it up with the bat it doesn't matter. But it does, it can cost victories.
I told you I went through match reports from an old India series a week or so, and on two instances it specially mentioned in the summaries that dropped slip catches cost India the opportunity to win, your response was to bring up Pakistan from the 90's.

I know part of it is philosophically driven, you basically believe bat deep wins the day. You don't pick the best bowlers, you chose the best ones who could bat, you don't choose the best keeper, you choose the one who can bat the best. But matches have never been won that way, not consistently. Look at Bumrah, McGrath etc, do you drop them?
I think it was you that said you can always count on between 50 and 75 an innings from a Imran / Hadlee or Jadeja / Ashwin, I've consistently said that relying on such lower order heroics isn't the best formula for success.
You also seems to believe catching doesn't matter and that a good outfielder is just as important as a good slip catcher, which is at best far fetched, especially considering how many matches have been won and lost in the cordon.

So I imagine when you have to choose between specialist catching and lower order batting, it's a no brainer for you.

Thankfully, at least going by this poll, it's not a sentiment yet shared by the community.

Dujon wasn't a bat nearly as good as Pant. So yeah, there's a really significant gap between them. So no, I ain't getting that Gabba 90. The difference in their batting is similar to that between Darryl Cullinan and Shaun Pollock.

I also gave him an example of a keeper making a mistake in the field and making up for that with the bat, in one of the matches he pointed out.

I believe in safe fielding. I want my fielders to grap the ones close to them. Same for my wk. I want competency. I think I am getting that from Flower. Batting deep I only do when I consider the level of bowlers to be close enough. I think McGrath and Imran are close enough for Imran's runs to swing it in his favour. I was one of the biggest criticisers of playing Shardul for Shami in ODIs.

 

[kyear2]

Currentl , All teams in the world will pick a generational player like Flower even if it means reduced wicketkeeping efficiency.

Also this isn’t a comparison, Knotta equals are Saha, Prasanna Jaya, Foakes maybe Farokh engineer at best.

Flower is an ATG, Knott was a journeyman.

I don't believe that first part to be true.

And as for the remainder, probably one of the most disappointing posts I've seen on the forum. A journeyman?

 

[capt_Luffy]

I don't believe that first part to be true.

And as for the remainder, probably one of the most disappointing posts I've seen on the forum. A journeyman?

Which team you think will prefer Knott over Flower currently, giving you can take only one.

 

[kyear2]

It's better to have a top class keeper pedestrian than just a pedestrian.

Exactly.

 

[kyear2]

Dujon wasn't a bat nearly as good as Pant. So yeah, there's a really significant gap between them. So no, I ain't getting that Gabba 90. The difference in their batting is similar to that between Darryl Cullinan and Shaun Pollock.

I also gave him an example of a keeper making a mistake in the field and making up for that with the bat, in one of the matches he pointed out.

I believe in safe fielding. I want my fielders to grap the ones close to them. Same for my wk. I want competency. I think I am getting that from Flower. Batting deep I only do when I consider the level of bowlers to be close enough. I think McGrath and Imran are close enough for Imran's runs to swing it in his favour. I was one of the biggest criticisers of playing Shardul for Shami in ODIs.

Yeah, don't think there's a single line in there that I agree with on any level.

Really beginning to see this as either a generational or regional / cultural divide. Because none of this makes sense to me

 

[capt_Luffy]

Yeah, don't think there's a single line in there that I agree with on any level.

Really beginning to see this as either a generational or regional / cultural divide. Because none of this makes sense to me

I also really ain't grasping the problem if Flower was competent given his batting and Knott's batting are like Hashim Amla and Shaun Pollock. A really big difference in play here.

 

[CodeOfWisden]

I also really ain't grasping the problem if Flower was competent given his batting and Knott's batting are like Hashim Amla and Shaun Pollock. A really big difference in play here.

Andy Flowers record is so balanced, I would rate him even higher than Amla tbh, probably Younis Khan level.

 

[sayon basak]

Andy Flowers record is so balanced, I would rate him even higher than Amla tbh, probably Younis Khan level.

Yeah. It's actually the majority opinion too.

 

[CodeOfWisden]

Imagine telling Zimbabwe cricket fraternity that we are taking away Andy Flower away from your history books but giving back Alan Knott.

 

[capt_Luffy]

Andy Flowers record is so balanced, I would rate him even higher than Amla tbh, probably Younis Khan level.

I also rate Flower higher than Amla, but so do for Knott and Pollock; so thought the comparison was well balanced.

 

[OverratedSanity]

Imagine telling Zimbabwe cricket fraternity that we are taking away Andy Flower away from your history books but giving back Alan Knott.

Dont think anyone's arguing he wasnt a better cricketer tbf

 

[Coronis]

Saw a curious stat regarding Flower the other day. Talking about batsmen’s career averages vs their last 2 years in test cricket.

Flower (1992-2000)
45 matches 81 innings 3006 @ 44.21 7 tons 18 fifties

(2000-2002)
18 matches 31 innings 1788 @ 71.52 5 tons 9 fities

(at +27.31 he was the biggest improver, criteria being 4k career runs and 10+ innings in their last 2 years)

Other notables by this stat include Kirsten (+23.02), Lloyd (+16.30), Hammond (-30.96), Weekes (-26.26), and Tendulkar (-25.16)

I also lol’d at McCullum. +3 in average but +27.87 in SR..

 

[honestbharani]

Nope. I basically looked at all the evidence I find online, including articles and talked with my father who has seen him keep enough. His keeping seems more than adequate really. I have enough evidence to know how bad Akmal was, had Flower was so bad, Don't you think match reports will be full of such instances and commentators and articles commentating on them?? Can't found any. Even OS said he looked untidy, not dropped much from memory; which seems the large consensus.

I don't know who really is excluding him from that argument. Many people won't like to him Sangakkara in their, others will.

My post in the other thread maybe a good reference as well.

 

[capt_Luffy]

My post in the other thread maybe a good reference as well.

Yeah, that too was influential for my stand.