Andy Flower vs Alan Knott

[PlayerComparisons]

Who is the better cricketer?

 

[Coronis]

Weak bowling opponent will score more. You will need every bit of batting to defend that. A wicketkeeper with a bit decency isn't going to affect nearly as much as an ATVG bat.

I guess you haven’t been watching either of the recent tests huh?

 

[capt_Luffy]

I guess you haven’t been watching either of the recent tests huh?

Nope I am watching India v NZ. And as one of the biggest fans of Saha, I am not switching him for Rishabh by any means. The way Rishabh is batting is impacting the match more than his missed chance which Saha would had grabbed in sleep.

 

[Coronis]

Nope I am watching India v NZ. And as one of the biggest fans of Saha, I am not switching him for Rishabh by any means. The way Rishabh is batting is impacting the match more than his missed chance which Saha would had grabbed in sleep.

I’m talking about Blundell and Smith specifically.

 

[capt_Luffy]

I’m talking about Blundell and Smith specifically.

Blundell is **** with the bat currently. Pant also missed a chance, but more than made up for it already with the bat.

 

[Coronis]

Blundell is **** with the bat currently. Pant also missed a chance, but more than made up for it already with the bat.

Thats not the point mate. The point is the poor keeping and the costs of it. Smith dropping an absolute sitter on Agha and letting Pakistan make England chase an insurmountable target.

Blundell shitting the bed on the Pant run out and now he’s made a crucial 50.

 

[capt_Luffy]

Thats not the point mate. The point is the poor keeping and the costs of it. Smith dropping an absolute sitter on Agha and letting Pakistan make England chase an insurmountable target.

Blundell shitting the bed on the Pant run out and now he’s made a crucial 50.

I get the point you are making. But I am making the counter point here. You can grab all you want, but that isn't going to give you Pant's Gabba 90, which changed the match. My point is, I won't like a keeper to make such mistakes, but I would take one who incase of making those, makes up for them with their batting. And on that note, Flower really stands tall.

 

[Johan]

No, clarification would be if someone asked about the batting lineup

the original intent of my statement was a weak team would pick Flower and a strong one or atleast a strong bowling attack would pick Knott, that's what I'm clarifying.

 

[kyear2]

Blundell is **** with the bat currently. Pant also missed a chance, but more than made up for it already with the bat.

That's not how this works

 

[capt_Luffy]

That's not how this works

That's exactly how it works. I did much digging on Flower's keeping, looking at old match footages, reading a few articles and talking with my dad. And all I got is that his keeping can be described simply as a bit untidy but much safe. Not spectacular, but hardly drops the doable. I will take that, and the ability to win a match by any day of the week! I mean, the difference in their batting is that of between Graeme Smith and Shaun Pollock.

 

[kyear2]

I get the point you are making. But I am making the counter point here. You can grab all you want, but that isn't going to give you Pant's Gabba 90, which changed the match. My point is, I won't like a keeper to make such mistakes, but I would take one who incase of making those, makes up for them with their batting. And on that note, Flower really stands tall.

@Coronis just gave you two examples of bad keeping literally costing two teams the actual match and you're still defending, and I apologize, but a really stupid position.

What made Gilchrist great and a true one of one, was that you didn't have to compromise anything by having him take the gloves.

The problem with a Sangakkara or a Flower keeping is that it also impacts their batting, while, at least in Flower's case, also giving you a sub par keeper, hurting you on both counts. Just give the gloves to someone else and let him play in the field. Solves both problems.

You also can't place Pant in the great category when you say, yeah he missed a chance but he made up for it with the bat. That's not going to always pan out that way. Missing crucial chances cost you matches, it's that simple really.

 

[capt_Luffy]

@Coronis just gave you two examples of bad keeping literally costing two teams the actual match and you're still defending, and I apologize, but a really stupid position.

What made Gilchrist great and a true one of one, was that you didn't have to compromise anything by having him take the gloves.

The problem with a Sangakkara or a Flower keeping is that it also impacts their batting, while, at least in Flower's case, also giving you a sub par keeper, hurting you on both counts. Just give the gloves to someone else and let him play in the field. Solves both problems.

You also can't place Pant in the great category when you say, yeah he missed a chance but he made up for it with the bat. That's not going to always pan out that way. Missing crucial chances cost you matches, it's that simple really.

I am sorry, but is it really this tough to grapple the concept that a batsman of Flower's quality will score runs!?? I also just gave an example of Pant dropping a catch but justifying it with the bat. If anything, I expect Flower to do so more. Is Knott scoring that 232* in India and winning that Test??? No way in his dreams. Or Pant's knock in Gabba?

Flower literally kept in 55 of his 63 matches and averages 53 while keeping and 35 when not. And I also presented that the evidence points towards Flower's decency with the gloves! I still haven't seen anything pointing his keeping being bad. It's frankly not close.

 

[kyear2]

I get the point you are making. But I am making the counter point here. You can grab all you want, but that isn't going to give you Pant's Gabba 90, which changed the match. My point is, I won't like a keeper to make such mistakes, but I would take one who incase of making those, makes up for them with their batting. And on that note, Flower really stands tall.

This is why this argument doesn't track for me.

I've seen Dujon hit crucial knocks, he may not average 40, but when needed more often than not he also came through.

So he's, you can still get that Gabba 90.

You ideally want one, who not only doesn't make mistakes often, but also takes the half chances and creates a few.

If you can get that with a mid 30's average, that's great.

Coronis just gave you two examples from ongoing matches where keeping blunders cost their team opportunities, and your response is, well if they can make it up with the bat it doesn't matter. But it does, it can cost victories.
I told you I went through match reports from an old India series a week or so, and on two instances it specially mentioned in the summaries that dropped slip catches cost India the opportunity to win, your response was to bring up Pakistan from the 90's.

I know part of it is philosophically driven, you basically believe bat deep wins the day. You don't pick the best bowlers, you chose the best ones who could bat, you don't choose the best keeper, you choose the one who can bat the best. But matches have never been won that way, not consistently. Look at Bumrah, McGrath etc, do you drop them?
I think it was you that said you can always count on between 50 and 75 an innings from a Imran / Hadlee or Jadeja / Ashwin, I've consistently said that relying on such lower order heroics isn't the best formula for success.
You also seems to believe catching doesn't matter and that a good outfielder is just as important as a good slip catcher, which is at best far fetched, especially considering how many matches have been won and lost in the cordon.

So I imagine when you have to choose between specialist catching and lower order batting, it's a no brainer for you.

Thankfully, at least going by this poll, it's not a sentiment yet shared by the community.

 

[kyear2]

I am sorry, but is it really this tough to grapple the concept that a batsman of Flower's quality will score runs!?? I also just gave an example of Pant dropping a catch but justifying it with the bat. If anything, I expect Flower to do so more. Is Knott scoring that 232* in India and winning that Test??? No way in his dreams. Or Pant's knock in Gabba?

Flower literally kept in 55 of his 63 matches and averages 53 while keeping and 35 when not. And I also presented that the evidence points towards Flower's decency with the gloves! I still haven't seen anything pointing his keeping being bad. It's frankly not close.

You looked at 2 highlights and ignored the list hand information and anecdotal evidence to the contrary. Coronis even showed evidence of Kamran Akmal looking pretty good as well.

You don't think that if Flower was as good as those clips indicated, that he wouldn't be in the actual argument with Knott and Gilchrist as the greatest wicketkeeper batsman ever?

 

[CodeOfWisden]

Currentl , All teams in the world will pick a generational player like Flower even if it means reduced wicketkeeping efficiency.

Also this isn’t a comparison, Knotta equals are Saha, Prasanna Jaya, Foakes maybe Farokh engineer at best.

Flower is an ATG, Knott was a journeyman.

 

[CodeOfWisden]

Currentl , All teams in the world will pick a generational player like Flower even if it means reduced wicketkeeping efficiency.

Also this isn’t a comparison, Knotta equals are Saha, Prasanna Jaya, Foakes maybe Farokh engineer at best.

Flower is an ATG, Knott was a journeyman.

Journeyman might be harsh considering I have put Farokh Engineers name there but again he was nowhere near an ATG.

 

[OverratedSanity]

Flower is a better cricketer, not a better keeper batsman. Every team in the world would pick Flower today but they'd pick him as a specialist bat and then probably also select knott as the keeper bat.

 

[Migara]

Nope I am watching India v NZ. And as one of the biggest fans of Saha, I am not switching him for Rishabh by any means. The way Rishabh is batting is impacting the match more than his missed chance which Saha would had grabbed in sleep.

Drop a pedestrian, get Saha in and have Rishabh as a batsman. Sounds familiar?

 

[CodeOfWisden]

Drop a pedestrian, get Saha in and have Rishabh as a batsman. Sounds familiar?

But Saha would be the pedestrian then?

 

[Migara]

But Saha would be the pedestrian then?

It's better to have a top class keeper pedestrian than just a pedestrian.