New Zealand doom and gloom thread

[HeathDavisSpeed]

Smacks a bit of being a sacrificial lamb. Everything’ll be fine now that Southee’s not captain but otherwise all the other settings remain the same. Stead needs to go. He’s presiding over one of the worst and most debilitating sporting cultures in NZ history.

 

[Bahnz]

Happy for Latham to stand in in the short term. Yeah, his captaincy has been pretty meh, but with Conway's form going to pot he's reasonably secure in his place. Once Stead gets shown the door (preferably at the end of this tour but in all likelihood mid-25) a decision can be made on a new coach/captain combo to take the team forward.

 

[SteveNZ]

Smacks a bit of being a sacrificial lamb. Everything’ll be fine now that Southee’s not captain but otherwise all the other settings remain the same. Stead needs to go. He’s presiding over one of the worst and most debilitating sporting cultures in NZ history.

Yeah it does feel like that. I'm absolutely dying to know how that conversation would go, though. Tim ain't retiring. Did Stead ask him to fall on his sword? Would surprise me. And how? Hey we think you're too droppable, can you step aside but not retire? I doubt Tim fell on his sword. It's such a weird one the more you think about how it came to be. And yeah, a lot of people on social media think it's a huge deal, when it really isn't as it stands. So the sacrificial lamb thing works

 

[kevinw]

Happy for Latham to stand in in the short term. Yeah, his captaincy has been pretty meh, but with Conway's form going to pot he's reasonably secure in his place. Once Stead gets shown the door (preferably at the end of this tour but in all likelihood mid-25) a decision can be made on a new coach/captain combo to take the team forward.

Have Phillips or Ravindra any captaincy experience as you'd want to move forward with those two longer term?

 

[SteveNZ]

“Obviously, things didn't quite work out the way we wanted in Sri Lanka, but as a whole, we did play some good cricket.

“We weren't far away in that first test. Take away the first innings in the second test (where the Black Caps were dismissed for 88), and we actually did okay, so hopefully we'll be better off for it.

This is an actual quote from new Test captain, Tom Latham.

 

[Moss]

Yeah it does feel like that. I'm absolutely dying to know how that conversation would go, though. Tim ain't retiring. Did Stead ask him to fall on his sword? Would surprise me. And how? Hey we think you're too droppable, can you step aside but not retire? I doubt Tim fell on his sword. It's such a weird one the more you think about how it came to be. And yeah, a lot of people on social media think it's a huge deal, when it really isn't as it stands. So the sacrificial lamb thing works

I could be reading it all wrong but I think Southee probably admitted to himself he is not likely to take too many wickets in the subcontinent and with an India tour there’s nowhere to hide, in these sorts of conditions he’s baggage. Better to stick around for the home season where he might still make an impact. To me this comes from self-preservation, I doubt Stead would have initiated any conversations of this sort.

 

[NZTailender]

“Obviously, things didn't quite work out the way we wanted in Sri Lanka, but as a whole, we did play some good cricket.

“We weren't far away in that first test. Take away the first innings in the second test (where the Black Caps were dismissed for 88), and we actually did okay, so hopefully we'll be better off for it.

This is an actual quote from new Test captain, Tom Latham.

I'm sure he meant to say, "take away both first innings of the second tests and we did ok - racking up 360 unanswered points in the second half"

 

[Skyliner]

McCullum had an energy, enthusiasm, and swagger about him that elevated the whole environment. He was that kind of New Zealander with a brash optimistic attitude reminiscent of our cousins across the ditch. There are a lot of pretty bland personalities around the current setup, a bunch of nice, humble, unassuming guys. Stead epitomises it so it’s fitting he runs the show. That ‘we wouldn’t say boo to a goose’ New Zealand attitude that often leaves us as also rans and earnest triers rather than world beaters. There’s a polarity in attitudes and we are at the polar opposite of the McCullum era.

 

[thundaboult]

Yeah it does feel like that. I'm absolutely dying to know how that conversation would go, though. Tim ain't retiring. Did Stead ask him to fall on his sword? Would surprise me. And how? Hey we think you're too droppable, can you step aside but not retire? I doubt Tim fell on his sword. It's such a weird one the more you think about how it came to be. And yeah, a lot of people on social media think it's a huge deal, when it really isn't as it stands. So the sacrificial lamb thing works

I'm not buying tim or stead alone making this decision at all. Probs stead and tim coming up with a 50/50 agreement, hey give up the captaincy so it looks like we're doing SOMETHING to address this but really i'll (stead) pick you whenever possible (which will still be most games ehhm ehhm rotation policy, 6 tests in 9 weeks ehhm ehhm workload management).

If tim was good enough in the t20 market and some of the big leagues thought anything of him, he would have jumped a while ago, no doubt. If he really cared about the well being of nz cricket, Matt Henry plays like 130 odi games by now instead of 80. And ofc Nathan Smith already plays a bunch of tests if Southee chooses to step aside and not play every test possible within the last 2 years. Maybe even sears gets to play more of em but i'm not sure how much influence tim had in picking kuggs and tickner. That could just be stead.

 

[SteveNZ]

I'm not buying tim or stead alone making this decision at all. Probs stead and tim coming up with a 50/50 agreement, hey give up the captaincy so it looks like we're doing SOMETHING to address this but really i'll (stead) pick you whenever possible (which will still be most games ehhm ehhm rotation policy, 6 tests in 9 weeks ehhm ehhm workload management).

If tim was good enough in the t20 market and some of the big leagues thought anything of him, he would have jumped a while ago, no doubt. If he really cared about the well being of nz cricket, Matt Henry plays like 130 odi games by now instead of 80. And ofc Nathan Smith already plays a bunch of tests if Southee chooses to step aside and not play every test possible within the last 2 years.

Can't disagree with a single bit of this. I think you might be right on the 50/50 agreement, then Stead gets to be presented as someone who's made a tough call (in reality, not at all) and Tim gets to continue his career.

Also agree on Tim and his 'loyalty' that gets talked about. The only reason Trent is globehopping while Southee isn't is ability, not dedication to the fern.

 

[SteveNZ]

McCullum had an energy, enthusiasm, and swagger about him that elevated the whole environment. He was that kind of New Zealander with a brash optimistic attitude reminiscent of our cousins across the ditch. There are a lot of pretty bland personalities around the current setup, a bunch of nice, humble, unassuming guys. Stead epitomises it so it’s fitting he runs the show. That ‘we wouldn’t say boo to a goose’ New Zealand attitude that often leaves us as also rans and earnest triers rather than world beaters. There’s a polarity in attitudes and we are at the polar opposite of the McCullum era.

I've thought about posting about Baz (maybe I even did at some stage) but then I think it really isn't about him.

It's about 'professionals' who should be far, far better. You coach or captain a national team, you should be prepared to work your arse off, have hard conversations, be prepared to cop criticism and get better from it, surround yourself with people who will give you an honest summary of who you are and your limitations, and make decisions that are with the team's results now and into the future at the forefront.

You don't need swagger to do that. Energy yes, enthusiasm yes, optimism yes, but just accountability. Baz, if we want to go down that path, from 2014 onwards (not before) lived and died on accountability. He gave a ****. About NZ cricket, the fans, the team, he went out with something in the tank but knew it was Kane's time. He's coaching England when he has wealth, a family who are missing out on him, fame etc. He doesn't need it, but he gives a ****. Does he have an ego? Hell yeah he does. But he channels it the right way. Gary Stead and Southee have egos and want to carry on in their cushy jobs, just doing enough to be seen as capable (and failing) but they are not team first.

 

[Bahnz]

Yeah it does feel like that. I'm absolutely dying to know how that conversation would go, though. Tim ain't retiring. Did Stead ask him to fall on his sword? Would surprise me. And how? Hey we think you're too droppable, can you step aside but not retire? I doubt Tim fell on his sword. It's such a weird one the more you think about how it came to be. And yeah, a lot of people on social media think it's a huge deal, when it really isn't as it stands. So the sacrificial lamb thing works

Well, depending on how much you buy into the conspiracy theory that Southee only got the captaincy gig because he was threatening to retire and go the Boult route, it could be that that threat has a lot less weight now than it had 2 years ago.

 

[RossTaylorsBox]

Baz PR team strikes again.

 

[thierry henry]

Baz was the epitome of the underachieving Black Cap for a decade plus, a good captain for like 2 years (with honestly some ordinary results in the second of those 2 years) and somehow gets credit for the ensuing 5+ years of good performances under KW's captaincy. Mad.

 

[RossTaylorsBox]

That's right thierry henry

 

[Athlai]

Hes also short

 

[Skyliner]

If the consensus is that the Baz captaincy era is a bit of a myth, and the results were not there, I’ll cop that. My comment was on the personality and ethos of the bloke: he did seem to try things and galvanise people, and maybe that attitude carried over for a time to the succeeding era.
There were era’s, particularly under the captaincy of Fleming, and the coaching of Bracewell, where it seemed a lot of thought was being given to how to the team should play cricket…sometimes it seemed like they were overthinking it and making a simple game extraordinarily complex. But what we have now is too far in the other direction, a generalised malaise and blandness, people just going through the motions without any passion or clear direction.

 

[thierry henry]

If the consensus is that the Baz captaincy era is a bit of a myth, and the results were not there, I’ll cop that. My comment was on the personality and ethos of the bloke: he did seem to try things and galvanise people, and maybe that attitude carried over for a time to the succeeding era.

I think this is almost the most common view, that the Baz/Hesson regime turned the team around dramatically from about 2013-2015. I don't think many people would deny that that's what in fact happened. What's unusual is it also seems to be commonly believed that all of the success from 2013-2021 really came from Baz/Hesson, as if McCullum wasn't gone and KW wasn't captain for the majority of that era.

Throughout KW's captaincy you'd often hear him negatively compared to McCullum even as we were going through arguably our greatest era ever. I think that's because there's this cognitive dissonance between the narrative that McCullum's "persona" was the key to our success, and the reality that we did just as well with KW's almost polar opposite persona. History needs to be rewritten to maintain the narrative that we won because we played BazStyle BazBall.

 

[thierry henry]

Like just the fact we are even talking about Baz 8 years after he retired and after a prolonged successful run under Kane is just so weird. Our golden era started out with a fun little run under him but that is so long ago now. So yeah, I should probably STFU about him too.

 

[thundaboult]

Like just the fact we are even talking about Baz 8 years after he retired and after a prolonged successful run under Kane is just so weird. Our golden era started out with a fun little run under him but that is so long ago now. So yeah, I should probably STFU about him too.

You mention him even after 8 years because he's #earnedtheright

You attack him even after 8 years because #whenindoubt #attack

You finally STFU about him after all this time because of your lack of #intent