Ravichandran Ashwin vs Kapil Dev

[Xix2565]

...... The conversation was who was more important, given we can only take one.

Well, 1: it's a stupid conversation to have, since you should just have both, and 2: Ashwin is still the best Indian spinner and so gets in on merit anyway. Kapil's bowling is more replaceable given that he's not as outstanding of a pacer overall and you don't lose much batting without him.

 

[capt_Luffy]

Well, 1: it's a stupid conversation to have, since you should just have both, and 2: Ashwin is still the best Indian spinner and so gets in on merit anyway. Kapil's bowling is more replaceable given that he's not as outstanding of a pacer overall and you don't lose much batting without him.

I think you are missing something...... Ofcourse both should get on the team, both does. But in case you can only take one, then Kapil is the better choice in respect to replacement; as again, Kumble is hardly a downgrade on Ashwin compared to Srinath/Zaheer for Kapil (and the gap increases if we factor in batting).

 

[kyear2]

lol. Its easy to recognise a great captain or coach, its not all about being the best team in the world.

Are you really going to try to tell me that if Auerbach was coaching the Lakers with Baylor and West, and then later with Baylor, West and Chamberlain that it wouldn’t make a noticeable difference in the results in the 60’s?

Do you think Red was the key? Or possibly Russell, Cousy, Havlicek and Jones etc etc...

Think NBA coaches are tremendously over rated, NFL less so, but still not the determining factors they are made out to be. Yes, again you can't survive an incompetent one, but everything above competent is fine.

In cricket, great players makes great teams... There's a thread ongoing for an AT SA XI where I believe Graeme is going to easily gain the captaincy nod. A few months ago I asked if he was even a good captain, to which there seemed to be no consensus answer. There's also no consensus answer as to what makes a captain great.

Wins / losses
Man management / instilling discipline
Tactical acumen

A combination of all 3?

A team doesn't need a great captain to be great, it requires quite a bit (that I wouldn't get into right now), but a great captain isn't one of them. A great team (or performances) however, does tend to make us see a captain as being great.

AB was a great captain, he instilled the discipline, was great tactically and he turned the team and culture around, but it wasn't until the quality of players improved, that the results (especially for subsequent, and possibly lesser captains), reflected it.

 

[kyear2]

Really?? I don't think so. Kapil still is comfortably India's second best pacer and a great lower order batting asset.

In practicality, I would prefer:

Jadeja
Dev
Kumble
Shami
Bumrah

Over:

Jadeja
Ashwin
Shami
Bumrah
Kumble/Srinath/Zaheer/Nissar/Amar Singh

Hard disagree, and Ashwin in the right conditions at home can win you more games than Kapil will at home and away combined.

 

[capt_Luffy]

And absolutely not a contender for any other one among the top 6 squads. Oh, and so is Vaas for SL btw, similarly due to the lack of top tier alternatives.
As a bowler Kapil wasn't ATG status nor quality, where Ashwin has a decent case to be seen as such, especially at home.

Hard disagree. Not as a bowler, but as an all-rounder Kapil makes the 15 man squad of every team but Australia, and very arguably South Africa.

 

[kyear2]

I think you are missing something...... Ofcourse both should get on the team, both does. But in case you can only take one, then Kapil is the better choice in respect to replacement; as again, Kumble is hardly a downgrade on Ashwin compared to Srinath/Zaheer for Kapil (and the gap increases if we factor in batting).

Jadeja and Ashwin gives you all the cover for the batting you need, and not like Dev is a great bowler either.

 

[capt_Luffy]

Hard disagree, and Ashwin in the right conditions at home can win you more games than Kapil will at home and away combined.

So can Kumble. No one except Bumrah can match Kapil as a pacer. You really are under selling Kapil HARD. He was hardly much worse than Botham (was overall worse, but not much).

 

[capt_Luffy]

Jadeja and Ashwin hives you all the cover for the batting you need, and not like Dev is a great laver either.

Again, Jadeja/Ashwin are simply more replaceable in an ATG India team.

 

[ataraxia]

And absolutely not a contender for any other one among the top 6 squads.

^ This is not true. Pakistan sides frequently feature MushMo whom most for sack for Kapil. Some would also considera Kapil / Botham combo for England.

 

[Coronis]

Do you think Red was the key? Or possibly Russell, Cousy, Havlicek and Jones etc etc...

Think NBA coaches are tremendously over rated, NFL less so, but still not the determining factors they are made out to be. Yes, again you can't survive an incompetent one, but everything above competent is fine.

In cricket, great players makes great teams... There's a thread ongoing for an AT SA XI where I believe Graeme is going to easily gain the captaincy nod. A few months ago I asked if he was even a good captain, to which there seemed to be no consensus answer. There's also no consensus answer as to what makes a captain great.

Wins / losses
Man management / instilling discipline
Tactical acumen

A combination of all 3?

A team doesn't need a great captain to be great, it requires quite a bit (that I wouldn't get into right now), but a great captain isn't one of them. A great team (or performances) however, does tend to make us see a captain as being great.

AB was a great captain, he instilled the discipline, was great tactically and he turned the team and culture around, but it wasn't until the quality of players improved, that the results (especially for subsequent, and possibly lesser captains), reflected it.

I think Red was a huge part of it. Who do you think even brought the fast break style of play to the Celtics and revolutionized them? Who do you think drew up their gameplans and plays? Are you really being this obtuse?

 

[sayon basak]

Really?? I don't think so. Kapil still is comfortably India's second best pacer and a great lower order batting asset.

In practicality, I would prefer:

Jadeja
Dev
Kumble
Shami
Bumrah

Over:

Jadeja
Ashwin
Shami
Bumrah
Kumble/Srinath/Zaheer/Nissar/Amar Singh

I'm so confused. Are you talking about the Holy Trinity?

 

[ma1978]

I'd say conventional wisdom is that Kapil competes with Sachin for greatest Indian player of all time

I'd say conventional wisdom is correct

You can't just look at stats without context, and the context is that Kapil Dev, through his accomplishments but also style and personality is such a unicorn in Indian cricketing history that he comfortably beats Aswhin

 

[Thala_0710]

Really?? I don't think so. Kapil still is comfortably India's second best pacer and a great lower order batting asset.

In practicality, I would prefer:

Jadeja
Dev
Kumble
Shami
Bumrah

Over:

Jadeja
Ashwin
Shami
Bumrah
Kumble/Srinath/Zaheer/Nissar/Amar Singh

If you ask most Indian fans, they would probably go

Dev
Ashwin
Shami
Kumble
Bumrah

In an all time xi.

 

[capt_Luffy]

If you ask most Indian fans, they would probably go

Dev
Ashwin
Shami
Kumble
Bumrah

In an all time xi.

I will go Jadeja for Shami (or Kumble away), as elsewise the batting will be pretty short by ATG standards.

 

[Thala_0710]

I will go Jadeja for Shami (or Kumble away), as elsewise the batting will be pretty short by ATG standards.

Would depend on the pitch probably, but one could make these changes yeah

 

[kyear2]

I think Red was a huge part of it. Who do you think even brought the fast break style of play to the Celtics and revolutionized them? Who do you think drew up their gameplans and plays? Are you really being this obtuse?

I'm saying all of the plans and plays doesn't work if you don't have the great players to execute them. The Celtics had, for the most part, and by some distance, the best team.

 

[PlayerComparisons]

Close one

 

[honestbharani]

Kapil at 7 makes it easier to choose Ash over Jaddu in the India ATG XI for me.


Gavaskar
Mankad
Dravid
Sachin
Virat
Pant (wk)
Kapil
Ashwin
Kumble
Zaheer
Bumrah

 

[Xix2565]

I think you are missing something...... Ofcourse both should get on the team, both does. But in case you can only take one, then Kapil is the better choice in respect to replacement; as again, Kumble is hardly a downgrade on Ashwin compared to Srinath/Zaheer for Kapil (and the gap increases if we factor in batting).

I don't think the pace bowling gap is as big here, and again, you still lose out on batting with Kumble in just like the pace comparison.

I'd say conventional wisdom is that Kapil competes with Sachin for greatest Indian player of all time

I'd say conventional wisdom is correct

You can't just look at stats without context, and the context is that Kapil Dev, through his accomplishments but also style and personality is such a unicorn in Indian cricketing history that he comfortably beats Aswhin

No way is that conventional wisdom. Not with Gavaskar/Ashwin/Kumble around.

Is Ashwin not just as much of a unicorn? Or is this just a made up definition to exclude players that aren't preferred?

 

[PlayerComparisons]

Future Indian ATG XI

Gavaskar
Jaiswal
Dravid
Tendulkar
Kohli
Pant
Kapil
Ashwin
Kuldeep
Bumrah
Shami