**Official** English Football Season 2024/25

[Jarquis]

I genuinely didn't think the rest of the quote was relevant but thanks for sharing - not sure what it added.

He can, does and will offer so much in midfield that after moving him out of the position, Arteta then goes and signs one of Europe's best to play the role instead. Interesting.

I can't help you if you dont see Trent's qualities. It says it all that Madrid are pursuing him as hard as they are. I'm sure your tune will change when they get him and he's lifting trophies at the Bernabeu every season.

You don’t understand how the comment re: versatility undermines your point of ‘he was signed exclusively to play in midfield’?

I’ve actually made no comment about Trent’s quality or my opinion of him. Just pointing out that you rate him as world class despite the fact he gets shifted into midfield to accommodate Kyle Walker. I don’t recall that happening to Cafu.

 

[Skipper Pup]

You don’t understand how the comment re: versatility undermines your point of ‘he was signed exclusively to play in midfield’?

I’ve actually made no comment about Trent’s quality or my opinion of him. Just pointing out that you rate him as world class despite the fact he gets shifted into midfield to accommodate Kyle Walker. I don’t recall that happening to Cafu.

Not really cause I never made that comment. I said Arteta signed him to play midfield, the evidence was there most of last season. He's put him back up top after he realised he made a mistake and it wasn't working as intended.

If the plan was to continue using Havertz's 'versatility' in midfield again why did you just sign Merino? You shouldn't need more proof that Havertz is up top full-time now than Nketiah being let go.

Really? lol. I dont recall Cafu being coached by Gareth Southgate. I wouldn't be using any tactical selections from the England national team over the last few years as a barometer for anything.

 

[Jarquis]

Not really cause I never made that comment. I said Arteta signed him to play midfield, the evidence was there most of last season. He's put him back up top after he realised he made a mistake and it wasn't working as intended.

If the plan was to continue using Havertz's 'versatility' in midfield again why did you just sign Merino? You shouldn't need more proof that Havertz is up top full-time now than Nketiah being let go.

Really? lol. I dont recall Cafu being coached by Gareth Southgate. I wouldn't be using any tactical selections from the England national team over the last few years as a barometer for anything.

Especially not if they don’t suit your argument, lol.

 

[Skipper Pup]

Especially not if they don’t suit your argument, lol.

Southgate thought Trent has the abilities to play as a midfielder, it was something the press had been pushing for a while. By your logic we should be saying the same about Kimmich.

Klopp (and now Slot) both disagree with Southgate, yet you seem to think a failed experiment by the national coach is some sort of indication that Trent isn't a world class RB. Just remember this was the same manager who moved Trippier to LB and was an advocate for Phillips at DM. I don't need to mention the numerous other poor selections that led to the side winning nothing.

If anything I think it's a compliment to Trent that people think he can play midfield however, I can guarantee Madrid aren't trying to sign him to play in that position either.

You seem to have in your head that I'm downplaying Havertz (and Rice) because they are 'versatile' players, absolutely not the case. Fede Valverde played pretty much the entire season on the right wing and yet I still think he's one of the best central midfielders around. Ancelotti picking him on the right isn't a sign that he isn't a world class CM.

It is funny that since I provided a rational argument backed up by evidence that you have diverted the discussion away from why Arteta signed Havertz though...

 

[Jarquis]

Yeah man, I just don’t think it would have ever happened to Cafu hey.

 

[Skipper Pup]

Yeah man, I just don’t think it would have ever happened to Cafu hey.

Except it did. He played RM for Roma between '99-2002. ~150 games.

Checkmate.

 

[Jarquis]

Except it did. He played RM for Roma between '99-2002. ~150 games.

Checkmate.

Oh, so it’s not a bad thing that Rice can play in two roles and it shouldn’t be held against him? Cool cool.

 

[Skipper Pup]

Oh, so it’s not a bad thing that Rice can play in two roles and it shouldn’t be held against him? Cool cool.

It isn't, he's just not world class in either position... yet.

Arsenal fans sure are weird when it comes to seeking validation of their players.

 

[Himannv]

Except it did. He played RM for Roma between '99-2002. ~150 games.

Checkmate.

That really isn't a mark against Cafu though. At that point in time, Serie A was the leading league in the world and Cafu was earmarked as one of the main attractions. It was a choice to showcase his attacking skills and play him further forward and he contributed in terms of assists and goals, while also running the right flank the way a wingback would.

He did feature as a fullback quite a bit as well and was like the primary width provider on the right when he first joined. Like here during his early stint (1998ish):

Or as a wingback in the early 2000s:

So it's not that he was being played out of position to accommodate someone else, he was first choice in every single game and is in the AS Roma hall of fame.

 

[Jarquis]

@Himannv facts are nice but not relevant to this discussion sadly.

 

[Skipper Pup]

That really isn't a mark against Cafu though. At that point in time, Serie A was the leading league in the world and Cafu was earmarked as one of the main attractions. It was a choice to showcase his attacking skills and play him further forward and he contributed in terms of assists and goals, while also running the right flank the way a wingback would.

He did feature as a fullback quite a bit as well and was like the primary width provider on the right when he first joined. Like here during his early stint (1998ish):

Or as a wingback in the early 2000s:

So it's not that he was being played out of position to accommodate someone else, he was first choice in every single game and is in the AS Roma hall of fame.

I suppose if you want to apply modern day positions retrospectively he would be considered a right wing back. Reality is they weren't known as wing backs then (the position didn't exist) - he was listed on team sheets as a right midfielder.

FWIW, I think Walker is the best RB in prem history, so the point that Trent was moved to 'accommodate' him isn't really a blight on Trent imo. It is possible to have two world class players in the same position.

Ultimately it comes back to what I've said all along though and what Jarquis is struggling to comprehend - we shouldn't be using Southgate's selections to measure anything.

 

[Pothas]

I suppose if you want to apply modern day positions retrospectively he would be considered a right wing back. Reality is they weren't known as wing backs then (the position didn't exist) - he was listed on team sheets as a right midfielder.

FWIW, I think Walker is the best RB in prem history, so the point that Trent was moved to 'accommodate' him isn't really a blight on Trent imo. It is possible to have two world class players in the same position.

Ultimately it comes back to what I've said all along though and what Jarquis is struggling to comprehend - we shouldn't be using Southgate's selections to measure anything.

What?

 

[Skipper Pup]

What?

This whole convo is going in such a random direction lol.

First it started with Raya being close to world class, then morphed into why Rice doesn't play 6 in big games because of team balance, then Havertz actually being signed to play 9 all along... now we're somehow on the history of wingbacks and Italian football in the early '00s because someone thinks Southgate moving TAA into midfield is proof he's not a world class RB.

I can talk about football for days and this forum (I'm assuming) is designed to generate discussion. Differences of opinion are natural so I don't really get why they are upsetting people.

 

[Pothas]

Haha I am not upset. Just confused by idea that wing backs are a new thing.

As it happens talking about Italian football in the early 2000s is far more entertaining than anything to do with 'Trent.'

 

[Skipper Pup]

Haha I am not upset. Just confused by idea that wing backs are a new thing.

As it happens talking about Italian football in the early 2000s is far more entertaining than anything to do with 'Trent.'

I'd prefer there was no discussion in this thread about anything to do with Southgate selections either but here we are

 

[Jarquis]

I never made a comment about Trent’s ability. Just pointing out you moving the goalposts m8.

 

[Skipper Pup]

I never made a comment about Trent’s ability. Just pointing out you moving the goalposts m8.

Here's a deal which I think is fair.. I'll make a judgement of whether I think Rice is a world class 6 when he actually plays that role in a big game.

We've seen bits of it for England (which again I refuse to judge given my low opinion of the manager's tactical ability) but whilst Arteta relies on Partey and Jorginho to play there instead, the jury remains out.

 

[sledger]

Haha I am not upset. Just confused by idea that wing backs are a new thing.

As it happens talking about Italian football in the early 2000s is far more entertaining than anything to do with 'Trent.'

I woke up in the middle of the night a few days back thinking randomly thinking about Claudio Lopez playing for Lazio for some reason.

If I remember correctly Lazio had Sorin playing as left wing back sided defensive player who also attacked and provided width around that time.

 

[Furball]

I suppose if you want to apply modern day positions retrospectively he would be considered a right wing back. Reality is they weren't known as wing backs then (the position didn't exist) - he was listed on team sheets as a right midfielder.

Wing backs have been a thing since at least the mid 90s when 3-5-2 was all the rage.

 

[Pothas]

I woke up in the middle of the night a few days back thinking randomly thinking about Claudio Lopez playing for Lazio for some reason.

If I remember correctly Lazio had Sorin playing as left wing back sided defensive player who also attacked and provided width around that time.

The ridiculous Lazio Championship Manager sides of around then.