Jacques Kallis vs Jack Hobbs

[Coronis]

Yeah but you are a Kallis outlier in general here which is why you saying that was such a Captain Obvious statement.

Would you also believe I don't have Lillee in my top ten?

What about Hoggard?

Or Garner for his batting?

 

[sayon basak]

Would you also believe I don't have Lillee in my top ten?

No.

 

[sayon basak]

What about Hoggard?

Or Garner for his batting?

You didn't mention shakib.

 

[kyear2]

It’s simple for me. I rate Kallis amongst the top 15-16 bats, and Imran amongst the top 5-6 bowlers. Further I value Imran’s batting over Kallis’ bowling. But then I agree we agreed to disagree about Immy long time back(during the Ambrose comparisons).

I'm directly referring to the statement about he can't be 3rd be use he wasn't the top bat of his era.

I rank Imran 8th as a bowler (as does the forum consistently), Kallis 12th as a batsman.
So that's a wash

Imran's batting is notoriously soft, and some what elevated near the end of his career when he wasn't bowling as much. Kallis played the role as prescribed and had a sprinkling of match winning efforts between the odd wicket taking ventures. Then there was his amazing catching where he's definitely top 10 all time.

With that combination, how can Imran be definitively above Kallis if you're using the accumulative rankings?

 

[subshakerz]

Yeah but you are a Kallis outlier in general here which is why you saying that was such a Captain Obvious statement.

Would you also believe I don't have Lillee in my top ten?

Don't know your stance on Lillee.

 

[subshakerz]

You judge a player by his era. Imran Khan was good enough to bat for the WI of his time.

Kallis as bowler overall, nah even for most of his career he fell well below that.

 

[capt_Luffy]

I'm directly referring to the statement about he can't be 3rd be use he wasn't the top bat of his era.

I rank Imran 8th as a bowler (as does the forum consistently), Kallis 12th as a batsman.
So that's a wash

Imran's batting is notoriously soft, and some what elevated near the end of his career when he wasn't bowling as much. Kallis played the role as prescribed and had a sprinkling of match winning efforts between the odd wicket taking ventures. Then there was his amazing catching where he's definitely top 10 all time.

With that combination, how can Imran be definitively above Kallis if you're using the accumulative rankings?

I mean, if someone believes that:

Imran's bowling>Kallis' batting
Imran's batting>Kallis' bowling
Imran's captaincy>Kallis' fielding

Then they can definitely believe Kallis to be definitively ahead of Imran.

 

[kyear2]

You judge a player by his era. Imran Khan was good enough to bat for the WI of his time.

Kallis as bowler overall, nah even for most of his career he fell well below that.

That's because, and I keep bringing up when you try to highlight performances against them, the lower half of the WI top order, and one can argue beyond that, in the second half of the '80's and after Lloyd retired, was ****. Logie wasn't a test standard batsman, he was below par. Stop with this stupid argument.

Neither of them were consistently test standard the majority of their careers

 

[kyear2]

I mean, if someone believes that:

Imran's bowling>Kallis' batting
Imran's batting>Kallis' bowling
Imran's captaincy>Kallis' fielding

Then they can definitely believe Kallis to be definitively ahead of Imran.

And I can argue against each of those.

In the 70's through the early 80's he was behind Lillee, Holding, Garner, and a host of others just factoring in the 70's. In the 80's behind Marshall and Hadlee, and the only reason some rate him above Holding and Garner is because he outlasted them.

Kallis was behind Sachin, Lara and Ponting. In the 2000's he had the sole home ground that was difficult to bat in and has by some distance the most man of the match awards. He averaged mid 50's, he's mainly down graded due to his speed and perceived lack of ability to accelerate as needed, not his output (for the most part)

Kallis was a top slip fielder, top three the last 30 years or so and ten over all. And this is a country and with an attack where it was critical to success.

The captaincy thing is overplayed. WI, Aus managed to reach and sustain themselves at their pinnacle with notably not great captains. You get better players and anything close to competent leadership and reams will improve.

 

[subshakerz]

That's because, and I keep bringing up when you try to highlight performances against them, the lower half of the WI top order, and one can argue beyond that, in the second half of the '80's and after Lloyd retired, was ****. Logie wasn't a test standard batsman, he was below par. Stop with this stupid argument.

Neither of them were consistently test standard the majority of their careers

I am trying to avoid engaging with you but because you responded to me (unnecessarily aggressively, I might add), I will just say this:

You judge a player by the era. Imran was good enough to be in any batting lineup in his time. Virtually every team of his time had an Imran-level lower order bat who regularly played in his side. The wider point when you make all the critiques of Imran the bat is that it was a tough era for bats generally, and therefore his record was acceptable by those standards.

You can't dismiss Logie. WI were the best team of his era, Logie was an Imran-level bat or worse, and yet he played a full 50 odd test career in the 80s.

Imran therefore was a specialist-level bat. Or a beast in the lower order as you called him.

 

[capt_Luffy]

And I can argue against each of those.

In the 70's through the early 80's he was behind Lillee, Holding, Garner, and a host of others just factoring in the 70's. In the 80's behind Marshall and Hadlee, and the only reason some rate him above Holding and Garner is because he outlasted them.

Kallis was behind Sachin, Lara and Ponting. In the 2000's he had the sole home ground that was difficult to bat in and has by some distance the most man of the match awards. He averaged mid 50's, he's mainly down graded due to his speed and perceived lack of ability to accelerate as needed, not his output (for the most part)

Kallis was a top slip fielder, top three the last 30 years or so and ten over all. And this is a country and with an attack where it was critical to success.

The captaincy thing is overplayed. WI, Aus managed to reach and sustain themselves at their pinnacle with notably not great captains. You get better players and anything close to competent leadership and reams will improve.

And some people can make arguments for Kallis being overall better than Sobers..... No point in there. I know I am not going to change your mind, but for me Imran is well ahead of Kallis.

 

[HouHsiaoHsien]

I'm directly referring to the statement about he can't be 3rd be use he wasn't the top bat of his era.

I rank Imran 8th as a bowler (as does the forum consistently), Kallis 12th as a batsman.
So that's a wash

Imran's batting is notoriously soft, and some what elevated near the end of his career when he wasn't bowling as much. Kallis played the role as prescribed and had a sprinkling of match winning efforts between the odd wicket taking ventures. Then there was his amazing catching where he's definitely top 10 all time.

With that combination, how can Imran be definitively above Kallis if you're using the accumulative rankings?

During his bowling peak Imran averaged 40 from 1980-88 with crucial knocks. Not saying he was a very good bat, but good, and better than Kallis the bowl for me clearly. I rank Imran as a bowler higher than most of the forum, cause he was generally brilliant across conditions, but that’s not what I want to argue about, since you know about my stance about Imran, and I understand yours. For me Imran is definitely above Kallis.

 

[HouHsiaoHsien]

And I can argue against each of those.

In the 70's through the early 80's he was behind Lillee, Holding, Garner, and a host of others just factoring in the 70's. In the 80's behind Marshall and Hadlee, and the only reason some rate him above Holding and Garner is because he outlasted them.

Kallis was behind Sachin, Lara and Ponting. In the 2000's he had the sole home ground that was difficult to bat in and has by some distance the most man of the match awards. He averaged mid 50's, he's mainly down graded due to his speed and perceived lack of ability to accelerate as needed, not his output (for the most part)

Kallis was a top slip fielder, top three the last 30 years or so and ten over all. And this is a country and with an attack where it was critical to success.

The captaincy thing is overplayed. WI, Aus managed to reach and sustain themselves at their pinnacle with notably not great captains. You get better players and anything close to competent leadership and reams will improve.

Imran as a bowler in the 80s was clearly better than Holding and Garner, and if not for his injury he could’ve been as good as Hadlee and Marshall if not better. In his peak(1980-88), he had great series in Aus, WI, at home, one in India(not the 87 one). Also he had averaged something like 14-15 for a decent period. Thats a peak no bowler has managed to hit in modern cricket

 

[subshakerz]

During his bowling peak Imran averaged 40 from 1980-88 with crucial knocks. Not saying he was a very good bat, but good, and better than Kallis the bowl for me clearly. I rank Imran as a bowler higher than most of the forum, cause he was generally brilliant across conditions, but that’s not what I want to argue about, since you know about my stance about Imran, and I understand yours. For me Imran is definitely above Kallis.

He is pretending that the 80s were like the 2000s where every Tom, Dick and Harry was averaging 50.

Reality is the 80s were a tough batting era. Averaging in the mid-30s was respectable and Imran was perfectly acceptable as a lower order bat, even by the best team in the world standards.

 

[howitzer]

There are four Test bats whose primary discipline I'd rate above Kallis' all-round package. Three are Bradman, Tendulkar and Sobers. The other is Hobbs.

 

[subshakerz]

There are four Test bats whose primary discipline I'd rate above Kallis' all-round package. Three are Bradman, Tendulkar and Sobers. The other is Hobbs.

Kallis to me is a discount version of Sobers. Overrated in all respects, except maybe catching. One of the few big bats to actually cost his team games with his defensive batting approach.

 

[HouHsiaoHsien]

Kallis to me is a discount version of Sobers. Overrated in all respects, except maybe catching. One of the few big bats to actually cost his team games with his defensive batting approach.

Genuine question, have you always rated Kallis this low or post career?

 

[subshakerz]

Genuine question, have you always rated Kallis this low or post career?

During his career, I never rated him that high. He was always in the second tier of run grabbers. He never struck any sense of fear or awe when walking to the crease. Nor did you have a fear like Dravid that he could bat you out of the game. The only time I rated him higher was late career when his SR picked up and he knew how to attack. But even then he wasnt even the best bat in the team frankly.

That's why I am a bit miffed at all this post-career revisionism on CW. Like putting him in the top 15 bats? Seriously? That guy.

But then this entire board is full of number bods frankly so I am not too surprised. It is a losing fight.

 

[PlayerComparisons]

Don't know your stance on Lillee.

He rates Hoggard as a better bowler than Lillee

 

[PlayerComparisons]

During his career, I never rated him that high. He was always in the second tier of run grabbers. He never struck any sense of fear or awe when walking to the crease. Nor did you have a fear like Dravid that he could bat you out of the game. The only time I rated him higher was late career when his SR picked up and he knew how to attack. But even then he wasnt even the best bat in the team frankly.

That's why I am a bit miffed at all this post-career revisionism on CW. Like putting him in the top 15 bats? Seriously? That guy.

But then this entire board is full of number bods frankly so I am not too surprised. It is a losing fight.

Kallis’s rating will be even higher a few decades from now. Future generations will only rate on stats so there’s nothing that can really be done to prevent it.