Richard Hadlee vs Imran Khan

[subshakerz]

Almost no bowlers have a career average below 22. 22 away vs the strongest team of the time is clearly better than 22 career. Even if average was the only way to assess (and it very much isn't),ywhere you draw a line is wrong.

Check my above post. Clearly he doesn't apply this standard to his other favorites pacers he puts in the top tier. He is just making this up on the fly or just blowing hot air to fool us

 

[kyear2]

Nice to know that according to @kyear2, Marshall in India, McGrath in SA and Hadlee in England are all below ATG standards.

Strange how he never mentions that though.

You don't have to be all time great on every country to be an ATG bowler. Though I would say for McGrath is a hell of a lot closer with just over 23 than 25.

For Marshall, the same way you and I eliminate '71 from Imran, I justifiably remove '78 from Marshall.

 

[shortpitched713]

It's laughable to call Imran's performances overall in WI anything other than ATG. I mean, where do we end up with using this logic? I guess Shane Warne's career should also not be called ATG, because oops average over 25.

Context, my dude.

 

[subshakerz]

You don't have to be all time great on every country to be an ATG bowler. Though I would say for McGrath is a hell of a lot closer with just over 23 than 25.

How good do you have to be in a country to not get docked point as an ATG pacer? Please clarify.

For Marshall, the same way you and I eliminate '71 from Imran, I justifiably remove '78 from Marshall.

Yeah you're only doing that now because I pointed it out. Otherwise before you never even considered it a blemish.

Now will you please acknowledge, that based on his prime record as a bowler in Aus and including WSC, Imran Khan is worldclass there?

 

[smash84]

ATG for me has to come in around 22, regardless of the wpm (not saying it can be 3, bit even with a high wpm, still has to be showing the average)

Today I learned that Shane Warne is not an ATG.

 

[subshakerz]

It's laughable to call Imran's performances overall in WI anything other than ATG. I mean, where do we end up with using this logic? I guess Shane Warne's career should also not be called ATG, because oops average over 25.

Context, my dude.

Yup it's mental. I can take a fine-toothed comb and say Marshall averaged a bit high in India, had a poor WPM in Pak and has an entire career based on binging on crap lineups of Aus and England That sort of nitpicking would get an accusation of bias from him.

 

[shortpitched713]

Bowlers who averaged under 30 and took 10+ wickets in WI during their era of greatness. Imran has 48 wickets, only Kapil has 30+

View attachment 40828

If I had to assemble an XI with players to face peak Wes Indies in West Indies, I'd shortlist probably everyone on this list who is has an average 28 or lower ( maybe even Thomson at peak). They have all demonstrated they can "do it", which is worth a lot. Almost everyone else failed against that juggernaut, including some big names, like Botham in particular.

 

[smash84]

It was a very good performance.

In '87, Viv missed the first game, and the batting lineup at that point was no where near what it was even in '84. Lloyd was gone and the heart of the middle was Hooper and Logie. Greenidge was past his best and being told he was blind, Richardson was our best bat at the time, outside of a declining Viv.

So no, 25 over the course of his career wasn't an ATG performance, even taking into account the s/r. As I would have said, what Ambrose did in Australia or Steyn in India is what I would call ATG

Oh yes, I forgot, you think that 13 wickets in 4 matches is ATG stuff.

 

[kyear2]

It's laughable to call Imran's performances overall in WI anything other than ATG. I mean, where do we end up with using this logic? I guess Shane Warne's career should also not be called ATG, because oops average over 25.

Context, my dude.

Comparing a spinner to fast bowlers?

If Imran averaged 25 during his career even with a higher wpm, are we calling him a top 10 bowler?

And why is it so important to change my mind? Changed my mind on lots of things here, currently trying to frame Wasim's career... 25 to me isn't an ATG performance.

 

[kyear2]

How good do you have to be in a country to not get docked point as an ATG pacer? Please clarify.


Yeah you're only doing that now because I pointed it out. Otherwise before you never even considered it a blemish.

Now will you please acknowledge, that based on his prime record as a bowler in Aus and including WSC, Imran Khan is worldclass there?

1. You are the most annoying person, I didn't start saying that yesterday, why do you think that you're to credit for everything.

To not get docked, don't be bad. 28 to 30 is below par, over 30 and we're asking questions.

 

[kyear2]

Today I learned that Shane Warne is not an ATG.

My God are u stupid.

 

[subshakerz]

To not get docked, don't be bad. 28 to 30 is below par, over 30 and we're asking questions.

Gosh this is like pulling teeth.

What is a par performance for an ATG? You called Hadlee averaging 27 in WI middling along with me, did you not? So thats below par, no? What is par?

And please respond if Imran's including his WSC in Australia is a par performance there?

And why is it so important to change my mind? Changed my mind on lots of things here, currently trying to frame Wasim's career... 25 to me isn't an ATG performance.

It's a good thing man. Don't worry we all screw up at times.

 

[capt_Luffy]

1. You are the most annoying person, I didn't start saying that yesterday, why do you think that you're to credit for everything.

To not get docked, don't be bad. 28 to 30 is below par, over 30 and we're asking questions.

Lol. So, by your definition Jim Laker in South Africa is leagues ahead of Anil Kumble in Australia......

 

[kyear2]

I love how no one is discussing the 26 - 1, but focusing on if I think Imran was ATG in the Caribbean.

 

[subshakerz]

I love how no one is discussing the 26 - 1, but focusing on if I think Imran was ATG in the Caribbean.

Not much to discuss there. And I am asking on Imran in Aus.

 

[capt_Luffy]

I love how no one is discussing the 26 - 1, but focusing on if I think Imran was ATG in the Caribbean.

Yeah, well what should we discuss exactly!!? The poll result we all voted for Hadlee or someone using the logic by which Marshall also won't be ATG in India??

 

[kyear2]

Yup it's mental. I can take a fine-toothed comb and say Marshall averaged a bit high in India, had a poor WPM in Pak and has an entire career based on binging on crap lineups of Aus and England That sort of nitpicking would get an accusation of bias from him.

Then do it .

I find it amusing that this is important, and I'm so very wrong, but end up at the same place as the rest of the forum with regards to where he's rated.

This doesn't matter.

 

[OverratedSanity]

An ATG performance is based on the average and the WPM. If it were 25 absent the ridiculous wpm, it would have been a good performance.

ATG for me has to come in around 22, regardless of the wpm (not saying it can be 3, bit even with a high wpm, still has to be showing the average)

Marshall isn't ATG level in half the countries he played in by this logic

 

[OverratedSanity]

Stats of fast bowlers on the two Imran tours to WI:

1977:

Imran : 25 wickets @31
Croft: 33 wickets @20
Garner: 25 wickets @28
Andy Roberts: 19 wickets @40

1988:

Imran: 23 wickets @18
Marshall: 15 wickets @19
Benjamin: 12 wickets @24
Wasim: 11 wickets @29
Ambrose : 7 wickets @52

That's pretty damn great isn't it? Could argue that among all the WI bowlers on those tours only croft came away with clearly better numbers (Garner kinda arguable but about the same tbh considering Imran's bowling to a far better batting lineup) . And Imran was comfortably the best statistical performer in 1988 ahead of some really great bowlers.

 

[subshakerz]

Stats of fast bowlers on the two Imran tours to WI:

1977:

Imran : 25 wickets @31
Croft: 33 wickets @20
Garner: 25 wickets @28
Andy Roberts: 19 wickets @40

1988:

Imran: 23 wickets @18
Marshall: 15 wickets @19
Benjamin: 12 wickets @24
Wasim: 11 wickets @29
Ambrose : 7 wickets @52

That's pretty damn great isn't it? Could argue that among all the WI bowlers on those tours only croft came away with clearly better numbers (Garner kinda arguable but about the same tbh considering Imran's bowling to a far better batting lineup) . And Imran was comfortably the best statistical performer in 1988 ahead of some really great bowlers.

The irony is that Marshall, except for India in 83, pretty much played against mediocre medium batting lineups his entire career. @kyear2 never mentions that of course yet puts Imran through a microscope because he is so invested in him being a home track cheat.