Kallis Vs Wasim

[Coronis]

I almost want to agree.....

Years of posting paying off.

 

[PlayerComparisons]

Viv > Ponting > Sutcliffe > Barrington

 

[HouHsiaoHsien]

I almost want to agree.....

Cmon bro. Let’s agree to love Viv and hate a little on Ponting. Reasonable deal?

 

[capt_Luffy]

Cmon bro. Let’s agree to love Viv and hate a little on Ponting. Reasonable deal?

The deal is ON!!!

 

[subshakerz]

Peer rating is due to aggression and by far no way as much as you think is in favour of Kallis. If you ask experts now I am plenty confident Ponting won't get more than 60% votes. And again, that's a minor boost at most, nothing major.

I think you will need to make sure the question is specific to batting. Kallis obviously is rated a better cricketer.

 

[capt_Luffy]

I think you will need to make sure the question is specific to batting. Kallis obviously is rated a better cricketer.

I meant the question as specifically batting.... If it was overall cricketer, Kallis would get around 95% votes. You really are downplaying how much of a peer favourite Kallis is presently.

 

[subshakerz]

I meant the question as specifically batting.... If it was overall cricketer, Kallis would get around 95% votes. You really are downplaying how much of a peer favourite Kallis is presently.

Its hard to tell. Ponting was almost unanimous choice for number 3 in the recent round of Lord ATG XIs on YT for those who played in this era. Of course, Kallis was unanimous for AR too.

 

[capt_Luffy]

Its hard to tell. Ponting was almost unanimous choice for number 3 in the recent round of Lord ATG XIs on YT for those who played in this era. Of course, Kallis was unanimous for AR too.

Yeah, but based on some recent interviews I saw of past players, I heavily believe it won't be a landslide for Ponting as you're predicting.

 

[subshakerz]

Yeah, but based on some recent interviews I saw of past players, I heavily believe it won't be a landslide for Ponting as you're predicting.

The only guy I saw rate Kallis over Ponting as a bat is KP. But them he rated Gayle over Kohli/ABD on the same list lol.

Many of the ATG XIs had Ponting at 3/4 and Kallis down the order.

 

[capt_Luffy]

The only guy I saw rate Kallis over Ponting as a bat is KP. But them he rated Gayle over Kohli/ABD on the same list lol.

Otherwise almost all the ATG XIs had Ponting at 3/4 and Kallis down the order.

I don't think batting position in ATG XIs is a good indicator of quality really....

 

[subshakerz]

I don't think batting position in ATG XIs is a good indicator of quality really....

I agree it's not the best indicator. But you kinda get a sense for how they rate the bat based on how they put their middle order.

For example, Donald puts Kallis at number 3. Gillespie puts Kallis at no.6. Not hard to tell who rates Kallis higher, catch my drift?

 

[capt_Luffy]

I agree it's not the best indicator. But you kinda get a sense for how they rate the bat based on how they put their middle order.

For example, Donald puts Kallis at number 3. Gillespie puts Kallis at no.6. Not hard to tell who rates Kallis higher, catch my drift?

I get what you are getting at, but Ponting was just a more specialist no 3 while Kallis floated freely at 3, 4 and sometimes 5 throughout his career. Ofcourse if both are playing, people will give the specialist his specified role and the free floater whatever is left. Someone placing Ponting at 3 and Waugh at 6 in their ATG team hardly indicates who they rate higher.

 

[subshakerz]

I get what you are getting at, but Ponting was just a more specialist no 3 while Kallis floated freely at 3, 4 and sometimes 5 throughout his career. Ofcourse if both are playing, people will give the specialist his specified role and the free floater whatever is left. Someone placing Ponting at 3 and Waugh at 6 in their ATG team hardly indicates who they rate higher.

Sure. I don't mind conceding btw that Kallis stock as a bat rose higher by the time he retired as he retired on a high, so I wouldn't be surprised if some put him ahead of Ponting, though a majority would put Ponting higher.

 

[capt_Luffy]

Sure. I don't mind conceding btw that Kallis stock as a bat rose higher by the time he retired as he retired on a high, so I wouldn't be surprised if some put him ahead of Ponting, though a majority would put Ponting higher.

I agree, but disagree on the extent of majority; which I believe to be around 60-40.

 

[subshakerz]

I agree, but disagree on the extent of majority; which I believe to be around 60-40.

That's a fair disagreement then. Still don't think Kallis is rated as a bat anywhere near Wasim as pacer, but then it's a separate discussion. Glad we could handle this courteously.

 

[Bolo.]

You didn't give specific examples.


Wasim wasn't worse though, that's the point. He had a much better pacer peer rating than Kallis ever achieved as bat


No pretending he was being rated ahead of them in the mid-2000s is revisionism.


Not sure what this means.


They are informed only to the extent they can comment on players they play against. I know you agree so why put words in my mouth?


No, I rate Viv so high based on his peak.

But peer rating is always one factor and usually is influenced by how they did in their prime.

Sachin shut anyone worse than a clear best after Bradman out for decades on career rating. I gave you a huge list of number 1 ratings for Kallis based on form. Not sure what else you want.

Nobody is disputing a number of players being ahead of him early in his career (on overall careers). That would be revisionism. Him improving and catching other players (whichever ones he caught) is simply a fact of people following different career trajectories.

You consider Akram the top bowler from complete period covering 90 to 97. It's a fair enough take, but only one you can make at the end of the period. Ambrose and Waqar were ahead for most of this time before injuries. It would be revisionist to claim he was better until late in the period. But not at the end of it. Like Kallis (or Sanga) over their careers in relation to a number of 2000s bats.

 

[subshakerz]

Sachin shut anyone worse than a clear best after Bradman out for decades on career rating. I gave you a huge list of number 1 ratings for Kallis based on form. Not sure what else you want.

Except Lara can match Tendulkar somewhat.

You didn't give a specific list really. You didn't mention players or commentators sharing this high opinion of Kallis.

Nobody is disputing a number of players being ahead of him early in his career (on overall careers). That would be revisionism. Him improving and catching other players (whichever ones he caught) is simply a fact of people following different career trajectories.

Ok but when was he rated the best at the time? Can you cite a period where that was the consensus generally?

You consider Akram the top bowler from complete period covering 90 to 97. It's a fair enough take, but only one you can make at the end of the period. Ambrose and Waqar were ahead for most of this time before injuries. It would be revisionist to claim he was better until late in the period. But not at the end of it. Like Kallis (or Sanga) over their careers in relation to a number of 2000s bats.

Ambrose is generally tied with Wasim as both top of their time, maybe with edge to Wasim. Waqar wasn't rated ahead of Wasim even in his peak frankly, that is just an opinion on this board. Wasim's high rating began around the same time as Waqar's, following the 1990 Australia tour and then the 92 WC and then England.

 

[Bolo.]

Except Lara can match Tendulkar somewhat.

You didn't give a specific list really. You didn't mention players or commentators sharing this high opinion of Kallis.


Ok but when was he rated the best at the time? Can you cite a period where that was the consensus generally?


Ambrose is generally tied with Wasim as both top of their time, maybe with edge to Wasim. Waqar wasn't rated ahead of Wasim even in his peak frankly, that is just an opinion on this board. Wasim's high rating began around the same time as Waqar's, following the 1990 Australia tour and then the 92 WC and then England.

Lara debuted at basically the same time as Sachin. People who debuted later are not only having to compete with a best after Bradman candidate, but also play catch up. Kallis would have had to have a far better bat than Lara to pull ahead of Sachin's career.

2011 and sometime in Kallis' mid 2000s peak. Can't remember dates, but it makes sense he would have been regarded the highest around 2007.

My perspective on the best bowlers of the 90s was formed in the 90s. Based primarily on what media was saying- I never watched that much of any of them. The perspective has been reinforced by stuff like CW and stats since.

 

[subshakerz]

Lara debuted at basically the same time as Sachin. People who debuted later are not only having to compete with a best after Bradman candidate, but also play catch up. Kallis would have had to have a far better bat than Lara to pull ahead of Sachin's career.

I am not sure where we are going with this. are you arguing Kallis is Lara/Tendulkar level?

2011 and sometime in Kallis' mid 2000s peak. Can't remember dates, but it makes sense he would have been regarded the highest around 2007.

He would have? I am asking if definitely was because my recollection is he wasn't.

My perspective on the best bowlers of the 90s was formed in the 90s. Based primarily on what media was saying- I never watched that much of any of them. The perspective has been reinforced by stuff like CW and stats since.

Ok.

 

[Bolo.]

I am not sure where we are going with this. are you arguing Kallis is Lara/Tendulkar level?


He would have? I am asking if definitely was because my recollection is he wasn't.


Ok.

A truly crap bat would have had a chance to have (briefly) enjoyed a better career than Sachin if they debuted at the same time. Bradman debuting 20 years later would not overtake Sachin's career while Sachin was still going. I think Lara had a somewhat decent case to be ranked ahead of Sachin when he retired. I don't think this would be the case if Lara had debuted 5 years later.

The sources I'm mentioning did rate Kallis this high. Would have been is the most likely date that peak estimation of him happened.

Not that I think that best form is particularly important, let alone perception of it. Kallis was probably the best bat from 04-2012, but if you slice that down, there will be a ton of players ahead of him at various stages in that time. Wasim was probably the best bowler 90-97, but I'm not sure that he was ever actually the best bowler in this period if you slice it down.