Kallis Vs Wasim

[ankitj]

Easily.

Not at all. Kallis > Ponting

Good boy @capt_Luffy fighting that battle.

 

[subshakerz]

Not at all. Kallis > Ponting

Good boy @capt_Luffy fighting that battle.

I really wonder how this counterfactual opinion developed.

 

[capt_Luffy]

I really wonder how this counterfactual opinion developed.

You mean how we rate a player who played in the same era, had tougher home conditions, averages 4 runs higher and has less glaring holes??

 

[subshakerz]

You mean how we rate a player who played in the same era, had tougher home conditions, averages 4 runs higher and has less glaring holes??

Right so just on stats. Which you have all but conceded would possibly make Kallis better than Lara.

 

[capt_Luffy]

Right so just on stats. Which you have all but conceded would possibly make Kallis better than Lara.

On ignoring context yes. Lara has ATG tours and dominated GoATs; Ponting didn't. Ponting's flair fells well short of anything substantial enough to beat Kallis' overall glory.

 

[ankitj]

Right so just on stats. Which you have all but conceded would possibly make Kallis better than Lara.

Around 2007-08, I would have put Ponting ahead. Ponting's late career slump is a big differentiator. And that happens to reflect in difference between their averages (stats don't exist in a vacuum).

 

[PlayerComparisons]

Seaming and swinging conditions - Kallis
Fast bouncy pitch - Ponting
Spinning pitch - Kallis
Flat pitch - Ponting (because of strike rate)

 

[subshakerz]

On ignoring context yes. Lara has ATG tours and dominated GoATs;

Those are fair points which are fine but they aren't clear clinchers compared to Kallis' advantages. Point is, I could make a good stat case for Kallis and you know that.

 

[subshakerz]

Around 2007-08, I would have put Ponting ahead. Ponting's late career slump is a big differentiator. And that happens to reflect in difference between their averages (stats don't exist in a vacuum).

I used to demerit Ponting for that until it was pointed out to me that he extended his career based on transitioning the team or he would have retired earlier.

And Lara had a hideous mid career slump.

 

[capt_Luffy]

Those are fair points which are fine but they aren't clear clinchers compared to Kallis' advantages. Point is, I could make a good stat case for Kallis and you know that.

And I already said a good stat case is possible..... Now, if you say a stat based case isn't possible for Sutcliffe>Viv you're kidding yourself; but just being able to make a case isn't much.

 

[subshakerz]

And I already said a good stat case is possible..... Now, if you say a stat based case isn't possible for Sutcliffe>Viv you're kidding yourself; but just being able to make a case isn't much.

Of course. Which is why ignoring peer rating and playing style forces you to make all sorts of contortions that you are doing to trying to differentiate top tiers ATGs you already know are better.

 

[capt_Luffy]

Of course. Which is why ignoring peer rating and playing style forces you to make all sorts of contortions that you are doing to trying to differentiate top tiers ATGs you already know are better.

Yeah, the difference is the suggestion that the other is better is of the fact that he was more attacking..... Not tough runs. Until 2007/08 Ponting was probably better, due to his flair mainly; but definitely since then Kallis went up and he went down.

 

[subshakerz]

Yeah, the difference is the suggestion that the other is better is of the fact that he was more attacking..... Not tough runs. Until 2007/08 Ponting was probably better, due to his flair mainly; but definitely since then Kallis went up and he went down.

Yes because anyone who watched the game knows that aggressive play has more net benefits, all other things relatively comparable. Unlike a player like Kallis, you get to dictate the pace of the game.

But it seems like you concede that peer rating should be considered.

 

[capt_Luffy]

Yes because anyone who watched the game knows that aggressive play has more net benefits, all other things relatively comparable. Unlike a player like Kallis, you get to dictate the pace of the game.

But it seems like you concede that peer rating should be considered.

If to players have close/equal records and skills; yes, aggressive play has advantages. Not when the difference in circumstances are overwhelming for Kallis.

 

[subshakerz]

If to players have close/equal records and skills; yes, aggressive play has advantages. Not when the difference in circumstances are overwhelming for Kallis.

It's not overwhelming for Kallis. Ponting only has India as a weakness in his resume. Kallis has two blemishes in Eng and SL.

 

[capt_Luffy]

It's not overwhelming for Kallis.

It's more enough for a tie breaker like aggression to not be overbearing.

 

[subshakerz]

It's more enough for a tie breaker like aggression to not be overbearing.

Aggression plus peer rating is more than enough.

 

[capt_Luffy]

Aggression plus peer rating is more than enough.

Peer rating is due to aggression and by far no way as much as you think is in favour of Kallis. If you ask experts now I am plenty confident Ponting won't get more than 60% votes. And again, that's a minor boost at most, nothing major.

 

[Coronis]

And I already said a good stat case is possible..... Now, if you say a stat based case isn't possible for Sutcliffe>Viv you're kidding yourself; but just being able to make a case isn't much.

Sutcliffe > Barrington > Viv > Ponting

 

[capt_Luffy]

Sutcliffe > Barrington > Viv > Ponting

I almost want to agree.....