Kallis Vs Wasim

[subshakerz]

We aren't conflating AR and batting ratings. It's a question of why differing ratings by the same people on the same player would hold weight when they confirm your opinion but not when they run contrary to it.

Rating for AR and bat is different. We can agree here, yes?

Similarly, why put stock in Wasim's peer rating when you yourself disagree with it?

I don't disagree with it but it's only one factor in making my full career assessment. Wasim in his peak which the players are mostly basing their rating on was for me ahead of his pace peers.

By your logic, contemporaries may not be qualified to hold an opinion of older players. But they are qualified to hold a ridiculously high opinion of Kallis. I think an opinion like best ever transcends the lack of other options from his era.

We can only take their opinions of any value respective to other players of the time they played against. It's quite simple. I don't see why you are disagreeing with me here.

 

[subshakerz]

Post them, because I've been looking. The best I've found was Hadlee saying that he was possibly the most consistent.
I've heard Holding saying he was the best captain Pakistan has had, that's basically.it.

Not saying you're wrong, saying I've not found them. So kindly post them.

Ok give me some time since these references were all from years back.

Hadlee by the way was quite clear that Imran was the best of them:

Imran was best: Hadlee on All-rounders era :: The largest library of cricket videos

The 1980s saw the emergence of 4 great allrounders in world cricket Kapil Dev Ian Botham Imran Khan and Richard Hadlee. All vying for the title of the best ever allrounder. Now one of the quartet is picked as the best. Its none other than Imran picked by Richard Hadlee himself in this interview...

cricketcrowd.com

Lillee said it in his book where he calls Imran the best in the world around the early 80s.when it was released.

Holding was a Cricinfo interview if I recall.

Ian Chappell said it in a Aussie TV show segment where he was asked to name his top 5 all-rounders, and named Imran ahead of the others in his list (forgot the order but Sobers was no.1)

Border and Greg Chappell said it in TV interviews. I need to find those references again.

Dickie Bird put Imran as the only one of the four in his ATG XI:

Dickie Bird names his greatest all-time Test XI: in pictures

Dickie Bird names his greatest all-time Test XI: in pictures

www.telegraph.co.uk

So did Rodney Marsh:

 

[smash84]

Not by u

Good. At least I can have some effect, even if I can't put some sense into you.

 

[PlayerComparisons]

I am invalidating the point that majority shares the opinion that Ponting being closer to Sachin than Kallis; not my personal views in which I made it clear how overrated he is I feel.

If it makes you feel better, future generations will likely rate Kallis and Sanga higher than Ponting

 

[kyear2]

No, the Chennai turners to Georgetown..... You yourself said how flat Bourda and QPO were; and Bengaluru, Kanpur and Chennai were anything but flat. We all can cherry pick pitches.

I've said it was a mix.

Kensington and Sabina were fast, Guyana was a turner, Trinidad uneven, and the ARG was flat.

So if India was so helpful, we need to change up the narrative then?

 

[kyear2]

Good. At least I can have some effect, even if I can't put some sense into you.

Or me get some into you... Still hope.

 

[Bolo.]

Rating for AR and bat is different. We can agree here, yes?


I don't disagree with it but it's only one factor in making my full career assessment. Wasim in his peak which the players are mostly basing their rating on was for me ahead of his pace peers.


We can only take their opinions of any value respective to other players of the time they played against. It's quite simple. I don't see why you are disagreeing with me here.

You are picking and choosing the ratings you give stock to as suits your agenda.

All the examples of Kallis being rated as a form bat- ignored.
Kallis not being rated as a form bat (the above notwithstanding)- valid.
Kallis not being the best from his era- valid, depite Akram coming off as worse in comparison to players from his.
Kallis overtaking players who had previously been ahead of him-revisionism. Akrams peak overtaking players (Ambrose and Waqar) who had been ahead of him for most of his peak period-valid.
People not rating Kallis the best bat-meaningful. The same people rating him the best AR-cluess.

You claim not to judge players off short term peaks, but you put a lot of stock in what contemporaries say about short term form. If it corresponds to your own views OFC.

 

[capt_Luffy]

I've said it was a mix.

Kensington and Sabina were fast, Guyana was a turner, Trinidad uneven, and the ARG was flat.

So if India was so helpful, we need to change up the narrative then?

The narrative that Indian spinners were highly successful at home compared to away and how **** the Indian spinners were post Quartet?? WI had plenty of flat pitches, and it's a narrative you are a big perpetrator of when discussing Sunny. And if WI pitches were so helpful, maybe we should start rating those pacers in a new light.....

 

[subshakerz]

You are picking and choosing the ratings you give stock to as suits your agenda.

All the examples of Kallis being rated as a form bat- ignored.
Kallis not being rated as a form bat (the above notwithstanding)- valid.

You didn't give specific examples.

Kallis not being the best from his era- valid, depite Akram coming off as worse in comparison to players from his.

Wasim wasn't worse though, that's the point. He had a much better pacer peer rating than Kallis ever achieved as bat

Kallis overtaking players who had previously been ahead of him-revisionism.

No pretending he was being rated ahead of them in the mid-2000s is revisionism.

Akrams peak overtaking players (Ambrose and Waqar) who had been ahead of him for most of his peak period-valid.

Not sure what this means.

People not rating Kallis the best bat-meaningful. The same people rating him the best AR-cluess.

They are informed only to the extent they can comment on players they play against. I know you agree so why put words in my mouth?

You claim not to judge players off short term peaks, but you put a lot of stock in what contemporaries say about short term form. If it corresponds to your own views OFC.

No, I rate Viv so high based on his peak.

But peer rating is always one factor and usually is influenced by how they did in their prime.

 

[silentstriker]

Wasim for me. Will win you more matches. But I have a lot of time for Kallis.

 

[kyear2]

The narrative that Indian spinners were highly successful at home compared to away and how **** the Indian spinners were post Quartet?? WI had plenty of flat pitches, and it's a narrative you are a big perpetrator of when discussing Sunny. And if WI pitches were so helpful, maybe we should start rating those pacers in a new light.....

The silly part of this is that I clearly have stated that they are, and were back then, a full mix.

No doctoring of pitches. Some helped the fast guys, one for the spinners, queens park oval was somewhat for the spinners but also had uneven bounce, and Antigua was flat. Challenges for everyone.

 

[kyear2]

Ok give me some time since these references were all from years back.

Hadlee by the way was quite clear that Imran was the best of them:

Imran was best: Hadlee on All-rounders era :: The largest library of cricket videos

The 1980s saw the emergence of 4 great allrounders in world cricket Kapil Dev Ian Botham Imran Khan and Richard Hadlee. All vying for the title of the best ever allrounder. Now one of the quartet is picked as the best. Its none other than Imran picked by Richard Hadlee himself in this interview...

cricketcrowd.com

Lillee said it in his book where he calls Imran the best in the world around the early 80s.when it was released.

Holding was a Cricinfo interview if I recall.

Ian Chappell said it in a Aussie TV show segment where he was asked to name his top 5 all-rounders, and named Imran ahead of the others in his list (forgot the order but Sobers was no.1)

Border and Greg Chappell said it in TV interviews. I need to find those references again.

Dickie Bird put Imran as the only one of the four in his ATG XI:

Dickie Bird names his greatest all-time Test XI: in pictures

Dickie Bird names his greatest all-time Test XI: in pictures

www.telegraph.co.uk

So did Rodney Marsh:

1. Contemporary ratings while they played

2. Anyone standing up and saying, yes, Imran was the best of the 80's guys. I haven't seen it.
As you said, Lillee had it in his book.

As it was though, Wasim had a way higher peer rating as a bowler than Imran had as an all rounder, because for the two teams that mattered, Wasim made both.

 

[subshakerz]

1. Contemporary ratings while they played

2. Anyone standing up and saying, yes, Imran was the best of the 80's guys. I haven't seen it.
As you said, Lillee had it in his book.

As it was though, @as had a way higher peer rating as a bowler than he had as an all rounder, because for the two teams that mattered, Wasim made both.

Huh? Didn't you see the link with the clip. Hadlee says it explicitly. And did you ignore the two teams that Bird and Marsh picked where the other ARs are not there?

And if Lillee was calling Imran the best AR in the world by the early 80s, do you think he would change his mind by the time Imran retired?

And yes, Wasim has a better rating as a bowler.

 

[silentstriker]

In restaurants there are ceetain chefs that are known as 'chef's chefs', which a lot of chefs admire and look up to but may not get as much general accolades. Wasim was definitely a 'player's player'. Contemporaneous batsmen and bowlers who played with and against him all rate him very highly.

 

[Coronis]

Peer ratings are probably about as useful as ICC ratings.

 

[subshakerz]

Peer ratings are probably about as useful as ICC ratings.

Only for stat addicts.

 

[Coronis]

Only for stat addicts.

As Bolo as pointed out, peer ratings only seem useful to you when it proves your belief about a player… and you talk about other posters being inconsistent. You’re now falling into that trap yourself.

 

[PlayerComparisons]

Kallis’s peer rating as a batsman is similar to Imran’s peer rating as a bowler

 

[subshakerz]

As Bolo as pointed out, peer ratings only seem useful to you when it proves your belief about a player… and you talk about other posters being inconsistent. You’re now falling into that trap yourself.

He has said that, but hasnt provided any examples of me actually ignoring peer rating in my evaluation. Let me know if I did so and I can address it. I prefer giving evidence with an allegation.

 

[subshakerz]

Kallis’s peer rating as a batsman is similar to Imran’s peer rating as a bowler

That would have been the case if Kallis was rated behind only Lara and Tendulkar in his time.