Kallis Vs Wasim

[capt_Luffy]

Again, I don't want to get stuck on Ponting but he had his tough innings and series too.


How does Kallis' overall batting record compare poorly with Lara's to justify being a tier below?

Kallis never had any series equivalent of those of Lara.... Not to mention Lara played significantly more in the way tougher 90s.

 

[subshakerz]

Kallis never had any series equivalent of those of Lara.... Not to mention Lara played significantly more in the way tougher 90s.

I suspect if I just gave you their record breakdown without names, there is a good chance you rate Kallis ahead.

 

[Coronis]

The reason given only evade the real point that how he played didn't distinguish him as ATG material.


There are plenty of cricketers I don't like but I acknowledge them. Kallis is one who deserves to be a backbencher though compared to real ATGs. His case is 100% retroactive stats driven and has nothing to do with how he played or how others saw him, that's my problem.

And again this is all just a poor way of rating players. The media is full of morons, half of whom don’t know what the **** they’re talking about, and most of the other half being ex players who rattle on about oh back in my day and are biased af. The rest just want a sensational headline. Speaking of peer ratings, they’re absolutely the most biased things ever.

I bet Ponting rates Harbhajan more highly than anyone on this website.

 

[capt_Luffy]

I suspect if I just gave you their record breakdown without names, there is a good chance you rate Kallis ahead.

I have done their record breakdown myself really..... Lara had some of the Greatest series of all time and dominated some of the Greatest bowlers of all time; none of the other two did. Also had a very good record across countries.

 

[subshakerz]

I have done their record breakdown myself really..... Lara had some of the Greatest series of all time and dominated some of the Greatest bowlers of all time; none of the other two did. Also had a very good record across countries.

How does Kallis' not have an equally good record across countries if not better?

 

[subshakerz]

And again this is all just a poor way of rating players. The media is full of morons, half of whom don’t know what the **** they’re talking about, and most of the other half being ex players who rattle on about oh back in my day and are biased af. The rest just want a sensational headline. Speaking of peer ratings, they’re absolutely the most biased things ever.

I bet Ponting rates Harbhajan more highly than anyone on this website.

Yeah players actually who face their opponents are in no position to cast judgment. Only all-knowing stats nerds on online forums who won't refer to the actual games do.

 

[capt_Luffy]

How does Kallis' not have an equally good record across countries if not better?

Struggles in England and Sri Lanka.....

 

[subshakerz]

Struggles in England and Sri Lanka.....

Yes and Lara struggles in NZ. One dud series in India. In fact , Kallis is much more proven in SC. Kallis much better in Aus where he was never owned there by McGrath like Lara. Then Kallis' amazing home SA record combined with a nearly 7 point advantage over Lara away.

Point is one can make a convincing case for Kallis to be better than Lara.

You see my point? If we take your stat reductionist approach, hard to escape these conclusions.

That's why peer rating and playing style are critical to take into the equation.

 

[subshakerz]

Your revisionist history argument that you use for Kallis, very much applies, though to a slightly degree, to Imran as well. I find it strange that you constantly being up one while ignoring the other.

You disappoint me. We've discussed this before. Peer rating isn't gospel but one of several indicators and we can contextualise it if it's affecting the underrating or overrating of someone.

Its a totally different case between Kallis and Imran.

 

[kyear2]

Exactly this. I hate when people think that Ponting was in a separate tier to Dravid, he wasn't, nope. And it further erks me when they use "having seen him bat" as evidence, as it reminds me of takes which were popular back then like "May being better than Hutton", "Kanhai being better than Sobers", etc.

Yes, to me Ponting is well clear of Dravid. We all see the game differently.

You think Sunny is better than Viv

 

[capt_Luffy]

Yes and Lara struggles in NZ. One dud series in India. In fact , Kallis is much more proven in SC. Kallis much better in Aus where he was never owned there by McGrath like Lara. Then Kallis' amazing home SA record combined with a nearly 7 point advantage over Lara away.

Point is one can make a convincing case for Kallis to be better than Lara.

You see my point? If we take your stat reductionist approach, hard to escape these conclusions.

That's why peer rating and playing style are critical to take into the equation.

I get your point, but I would overall disagree. In Lara's time NZ was mostly a weak team, Lara is the one among them to own McGrath, albeit at home; has the best series in Asia without any Soft runs, only one bad series in India where I am sure he would had dominated...... And again, the advantage of era and runs against better bowling line-ups. Yes, you could create a case for Kallis>Lara, but I don't buy that.

 

[capt_Luffy]

Yes, to me Ponting is well clear of Dravid. We all see the game differently.

You think Sunny is better than Viv

Sunny is equal to Viv, and I agree that takes some liberties and some ways I rate players others don't. Dravid a tier below Ponting is what I find laughable. I don't hate Ponting, just doing my part to somewhat balance the over fawning by certain fans on things like "dominance".

 

[ma1978]

Absolutely not. Kallis deserves to be compared to Dravid not the big guys.

Dravid was a top two bat for five years and number one for a decent amount of time

That’s not actually a valid comparison at all

You’re right in your assessment of Kallis, not Dravid

 

[ma1978]

Is Dravid an ATG to you?

Strong ATG

 

[subshakerz]

I get your point, but I would overall disagree. In Lara's time NZ was mostly a weak team, Lara is the one among them to own McGrath, albeit at home; has the best series in Asia without any Soft runs, only one bad series in India where I am sure he would had dominated...... And again, the advantage of era and runs against better bowling line-ups. Yes, you could create a case for Kallis>Lara, but I don't buy that.

Now you're just twisting yourself in knots.

Lara flunked against NZ with Bond, not 90s NZ.
He piled runs against poor 90s England, failed against the English 2000s quartet. Kallis simply has more to show in the SC, this isn't in doubt.
Kallis much better in Aus with McGrath which you admit.

You are just pretending that Lara has some clear statistical advantage that gets him to leapfrog ahead of Kallis. He doesn't. You know it and I know it.

Will you just admit then that Lara's exceptional peer rating and way of playing, as their careers did overlap heavily, makes his case ahead of Kallis clear? Or are you going to deny the obvious? This isn't some major concession bro.

 

[subshakerz]

Dravid was a top two bat for five years and number one for a decent amount of time

That’s not actually a valid comparison at all

You’re right in your assessment of Kallis, not Dravid

Dravid's high rating in his peak is precisely my point they won't acknowledge.

Well you'll agree that pretending Kallis is a tier above Dravid is simply wrong.

 

[capt_Luffy]

Now you're just twisting yourself in knots.

Lara flunked against NZ with Bond, not 90s NZ.
He piled runs against poor 90s England, failed against the English 2000s quartet. Kallis simply has more to show in the SC, this isn't in doubt.
Kallis much better in Aus with McGrath which you admit.

You are just pretending that Lara has some clear statistical advantage that gets him to leapfrog ahead of Kallis. He doesn't. You know it and I know it.

Will you just admit then that Lara's exceptional peer rating and way of playing, as their careers did overlap heavily, makes his case ahead of Kallis clear? Or are you going to deny the obvious? This isn't some major concession bro.

This is your problem, you know. Totally avoiding my point on ATG Lara series.

 

[capt_Luffy]

Dravid's high rating in his peak is precisely my point they won't acknowledge.

Well you'll agree that pretending Kallis is a tier above Dravid is simply wrong.

Yes, it's simply wrong to act Kallis-Ponting-Dravid were in separate tiers.

 

[capt_Luffy]

And I would request @honestbharani to take over the Lara discussion.

 

[OverratedSanity]

Kallis is not in a separate tier to Sanga and Dravid. Marginal difference between the three as batsmen.