Kallis Vs Wasim

[subshakerz]

Quality isn't static.

Who are you gonna rate higher if Kane averages 80 for the next x years (and fixes holes in record), Smith averages 30, and Bavuma averages 100?

Smith would be rated the best bat for the majority of career, despite Kane being a better bat overall. Bavuma would be the best bat for the next x years, but short of both on career.

Yes. But what if I told you there was a bat who played 18 years and never got rated no.1, in fact struggled to make even top three in the world, yet somehow is the 13th best bat of all-time.

 

[capt_Luffy]

Yes. But what if I told you there was a bat who played 18 years and never got rated no.1, in fact struggled to make even top three in the world, yet somehow is the 13th best bat of all-time.

Let's go at this; Kallis was definitely better than Ponting.

 

[subshakerz]

Let's go at this; Kallis was definitely better than Ponting.

Absolutely not. Kallis deserves to be compared to Dravid not the big guys.

 

[capt_Luffy]

Absolutely not. Kallis deserves to be compared to Dravid not the big guys.

Ponting is NOT among the very big guys, definitely not among those not comparable to Kallis and Dravid

 

[subshakerz]

Ponting is NOT among the very big guys, definitely not among those not comparable to Kallis and Dravid

Ponting was reaching Lara/Tendulkar level. Fell short but was in that discussion.

Kallis was just there somewhere in the background for the 2000s.

 

[capt_Luffy]

Ponting was reaching Lara/Tendulkar level. Fell short but was in that discussion.

Kallis was just there somewhere in the background for the 2000s.

Doesn't matter what level he was reaching, what matters is what level he actually reached.

 

[subshakerz]

Doesn't matter what level he was reaching, what matters is what level he actually reached.

Yes and he reached just short of Lara/Tendulkar level. Kallis is your garden variety ATVG bat we saw plenty of in the 2000s.

 

[Bolo.]

Yes. But what if I told you there was a bat who played 18 years and never got rated no.1, in fact struggled to make even top three in the world, yet somehow is the 13th best bat of all-time.

Kane could play for 20+ years under this scenario, end up the 2nd best bat of all time, and never be rated the best bat in the world.

The numerous obvious problems of rankings aside, a player very much can end up ranked 13th when the players typically ranked above him ended higher on the list.

How can Wasim be ranked 9th on the bowlers (or wherever we put him) when he played at a time of 7 better bowlers? Probably because the coexistence of better players don't make someone a bad one.

Which bats who played in the Kallis years do you rate above him? Which quicks for Akram?

 

[capt_Luffy]

Yes and he reached just short of Lara/Tendulkar level. Kallis is your garden variety ATVG bat we saw plenty of in the 2000s.

He was FAR SHORT of Sachin/Lara level. He lacks even a Single ATG series. At best, he is easily worse than Kallis and just outside of my Top 20.

 

[Coronis]

Yes and he reached just short of Lara/Tendulkar level. Kallis is your garden variety ATVG bat we saw plenty of in the 2000s.

Wowee. All your talk about perceptions is getting crazy. Its like you’re trying to rate Kallis solely based on the Barry Richards peer review criteria.

Somehow scoring the second most runs and the second most tons at the highest average whilst having the most difficult home conditions makes you garden variety in a decade

 

[subshakerz]

He was FAR SHORT of Sachin/Lara level. He lacks even a Single ATG series. At best, he is easily worse than Kallis and just outside of my Top 20.

I already said he ended up short of them but was definitely getting in his peak. If he is worse than Kallis for you I will question how you judge batsmen.

 

[subshakerz]

Kane could play for 20+ years under this scenario, end up the 2nd best bat of all time, and never be rated the best bat in the world.

The numerous obvious problems of rankings aside, a player very much can end up ranked 13th when the players typically ranked above him ended higher on the list.

No, I can guarantee you short of someone you played their entire career under Bradman's shadow, every ATG was considered a best bat at some point in their career

I also question the faulty ranking systems. But I am talking about Kallis' reputation. And he wasn't that level because he was never perceived as that threat. It's only towards the end when he had big overall numbers that he was given credit as an AR.

How can Wasim be ranked 9th on the bowlers (or wherever we put him) when he played at a time of 7 better bowlers? Probably because the coexistence of better players don't make someone a bad one.

Wasim around the mid 90s was widely seen as the best pacer in the world.

Which bats who played in the Kallis years do you rate above him? Which quicks for Akram?

Tendulkar, Lara, Waugh, Sanga, Ponting ahead of Kallis.

Ambrose, McGrath ahead of Akram.

 

[subshakerz]

Somehow scoring the second most runs and the second most tons at the highest average whilst having the most difficult home conditions makes you garden variety in a decade

Yes he would be discussed with Dravid and Sanga level but if you want to prop him ahead of that with he needs the peer credit to justify it.

 

[BazBall21]

I'd take Wasim. I think Kallis with the ball was more valuable than Wasim with the bat but Wasim a level ahead in their primary disciplines for me. The gap in their second suits isn't significant enough to overturn that.

 

[capt_Luffy]

I already said he ended up short of them but was definitely getting in his peak. If he is worse than Kallis for you I will question how you judge batsmen.

I judge batsmen by their overall records and find thinking Ponting on a separate, higher tier to be a worse joke than any of Migara's post on 90s Sri Lankan players. His peak is highly overrated, was back then; and now too by you and Kyear. When the chips were down, he sucked. He averaged 3 in a series at the middle of his "Peak". Yeah, if someone said Kohli was approaching Sachin in his peak, it would be wrong, but less wrong.

 

[subshakerz]

I judge batsmen by their overall records and find thinking Ponting on a separate, higher tier to be a worse joke than any of Migara's post on 90s Sri Lankan players. His peak is highly overrated, was back then; and now too by you and Kyear. When the chips were down, he sucked. He averaged 3 in a series at the middle of his "Peak". Yeah, if someone said Kohli was approaching Sachin in his peak, it would be wrong, but less wrong.

Let's not derail this by making it about Ponting who most here already rate ahead of Kallis.

 

[subshakerz]

I'd take Wasim. I think Kallis with the ball was more valuable than Wasim with the bat but Wasim a level ahead in their primary disciplines for me. The gap in their second suits isn't significant enough to overturn that.

Thank you. Finally some common sense.

 

[capt_Luffy]

Let's not derail this by making it about Ponting.

No, let's do just that. You are the one bringing how Kallis wasn't in the same class as Ponting in the 2000s.....

 

[Bolo.]

No, I can guarantee you short of someone you played their entire career under Bradman's shadow, every ATG was considered a best bat at some point in their career

I also question the faulty ranking systems. But I am talking about Kallis' reputation. And he wasn't that level because he was never perceived as that threat. It's only towards the end when he had big overall numbers that he was given credit as an AR.


Wasim around the mid 90s was widely seen as the best pacer in the world.


Tendulkar, Lara, Waugh, Sanga, Ponting ahead of Kallis.

Ambrose, McGrath ahead of Akram.

The Bradman example also applies to Sachin. Nobody who debuted from the mid 90s till his retirement could be ranked better than him, unless it is on form. On form, if you think nobody ranked Kallis top, you weren't paying attention.

You also rank Marshall, Imran, and (I assume) Hadlee over Imran. Given the fact that there are over twice as many bats as quicks, Kallis is a lot closer to the top of the pile if this peer comparison makes any sense.

 

[subshakerz]

No, let's do just that. You are the one bringing how Kallis wasn't in the same class as Ponting in the 2000s.....

Yes to make a point about Kallis. And he wasn't rated ahead of Ponting that decade.