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The ATG Teams General arguing/discussing thread

Spark

Global Moderator

Coronis

International Coach
More fuel for the "Narayanan is a deeply unserious hack whose fondness for numbers veils a complete and total lack of understanding of the context in which said numbers exist" fire.
Wonder how much he gets paid for my average day on statsguru
 

Red_Ink_Squid

Global Moderator
As Stephen A would say, it's fluid. But for at least today and a change up....

ATG XI

Sir Leonard Hutton - Not the greatest opener ever, that goes to Hobbs, but he faced much more modern, better and varied attacks, and in more counties. His s/r? In a team such as this, he's the exception not the rule and he would act as the anchor for the lineup. Of all his accomplishments, his greatest one may have been breaking Bradman's record against O'Reilly with the great man starring him down.

Barry Richards - Likely the highest peer rated opener of all time outside of Hobbs, and like the Master, he combined technical correctness with aggressive scoring unlike any other. He's the perfect compliment to Hutton, the one who will set the tone for the innings and a first rate slip fielder.

Sir Donald Bradman - 99.94. No he didn't play in the toughest or most challenging of eras or against the highest levels of competition, and yes he only played in two countries. But 99.94. His average in bodyline is still higher that that of most batsmen and the levels of concentration and skill required to do what he did would always lead to him being recognized as the GOAT. He would captain the team.

Sir I.V.A. Richards - The master blaster, he was arguably the greatest ever player of fast bowling, and could change the course of a match in a session. He dominated in what was the toughest era for batting, and helmet-less at that. His peak is beaten only by Bradman's and comprised of performances against some of the greatest bowlers of all time, and least we forget, WSC. He was also a brilliant fielder, arguably the best of his era and brilliant at third slip.

Sachin Tendulkar - All the records are his, and will likely never be broken. His longevity, consistency, and well rounded record paired to his technical skills all but assures him of a place in this team. Like Viv he played against some of the greatest fast bowlers of his and any era but also dominated the two greatest spinners of all time.

Sir Garfield Sobers - He was the greatest all round cricketer the game has ever seen. He was a top five, if for me, top three batsman of all time. He was one of the greatest players ever of fast bowling and also dominant vs spin, and did both vs some of the greatest ever. He was easily the most versatile, and the greatest relief bowler of all time, having the quality to at times, open the bowling. He was an ATG in the cordon, manning the critical 2nd slip position, but also a magnificent catcher and fielder everywhere close to the wicket.

Adam Gilchrist - He forever changed his position, and was a cheat code for one of the greatest teams ever. He kept brilliantly to McGrath, but especially and critically to Warne and McGill. He didn't just score, he destroyed teams, and quickly, setting up victories by giving his attack more time to bowl out the opposition. His catching and stumping didn't hurt either.

Imran Khan - No my views on his bowling hasn't changed, and his away record had questions, but he was as far above the other bowling all rounders as Gilly is for keepers. He was a pioneer of reverse swing, that brings an added dimension to the old ball attack. His lower order batting factors in as well, and he was capable of dropping anchor or launching an attack.

Malcolm Marshall - The greatest bowler the game has seen. He possessed express pace, could swing the ball both ways and developed the cutter later in his career. He dominated on pitches rolled out to neutralize him and tested your will and safety in addition to your technique. To quote, he had all the tools and knew when and where to use them. He was also a useful lower order bat, who never matched his potential.

Shane Warne - No he didn't revive nor save leg spin, but he sure as hell perfected it. He paired with McGrath to form possible the greatest and definely the most tenured and productive bowling duo of all time, launching Australia to one of the greatest teams ever. His introduction to the ashes was the stuff of legend and a precursor of his career. He too was a more than useful lower order bat.

Glenn McGrath - He was the best player and spearhead of one of the greatest teams ever. He was his best against the very best, and he faced some of the greatest ever. He possessed unequalled accuracy and subtle seam movement, transitioning from the bowler era of the 90's to the flat era with no drop in quality, utilizing his prevision and bounce to his advantage. He's the perfect compliment for Maco, and with two bowlers from the '80's, one from the modern era is a must, though he probably is regardless.

Sir Leonard Hutton
Barry Richards^
Sir Donald Bradman (c)
Sir I.V.A. Richards^
Sachin Tendulkar
Sir Garfield Sobers^(5)
Adam Gilchrist +
Imran Khan (3)
Malcolm Marshall (1)
Shane Warne (4)
Glenn McGrath (2)
Strong side.

To challenge them I'd go something like:

W.G. Grace*
Jack Hobbs
Kallis
Lara
Chappell
Pollock
Knott +
Hadlee
Akram
O'Reilly
Ambrose

Woakes obviously comes in to the XI if that's not considered unfair.
 

capt_Luffy

International Captain
Strong side.

To challenge them I'd go something like:

W.G. Grace*
Jack Hobbs
Kallis
Lara
Chappell
Pollock
Knott +
Hadlee
Akram
O'Reilly
Ambrose

Woakes obviously comes in to the XI if that's not considered unfair.
Ah, two strong sides, I see. I challenge both with:

Sunil Gavaskar
Herbert Sutcliffe
George Headley
Wally Hammond
Steve Smith
Kumar Sangakkara (wk)
Keith Miller
Mike Procter (c)
Dale Steyn
Mutthiah Muralitharan
Joel Garner

I really wanted to take Victor Trumper as an opener over Sutcliffe for a more aggressive option, but decided against it as @Coronis might kill me......
 
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peterhrt

U19 Vice-Captain
And it would be Bradman regardless, and do we really know how great a captain he was? His strength, weaknesses etc...I'm sure @Coronis, @peterhrt, @Patience and Accuracy+Gut, or @JBMAC / @Line and Length can provide some insight.
Bradman was always considered a good captain. Well-prepared, tactically astute, with an eye for detail. Not all his teammates liked him. He was ruthless, which would be admired now, but wasn't always back then, especially just after the war when diplomacy and the spirit of the game were deemed particularly important.

Noble and Benaud were generally thought superior as Australian captains. I have also seen Border ranked above him.
 

Line and Length

Cricketer Of The Year
Bradman was always considered a good captain. Well-prepared, tactically astute, with an eye for detail. Not all his teammates liked him. He was ruthless, which would be admired now, but wasn't always back then, especially just after the war when diplomacy and the spirit of the game were deemed particularly important.

Noble and Benaud were generally thought superior as Australian captains. I have also seen Border ranked above him.
There were two factors surrounding Bradman's teammates dislike of him. The first, and one which isn't found today, was the strong Masons v Catholic conflict. The second related to Bradman's wartime 'service' - or lack thereof.
Bradman's pre-war experiences, notably 'Bodyline' and England's ruthless batting in the final Test of 1938, made him ultra-competitive with his 'Invincibles'. Not all went along with his approach.
 

kyear2

International Coach
There were two factors surrounding Bradman's teammates dislike of him. The first, and one which isn't found today, was the strong Masons v Catholic conflict. The second related to Bradman's wartime 'service' - or lack thereof.
Bradman's pre-war experiences, notably 'Bodyline' and England's ruthless batting in the final Test of 1938, made him ultra-competitive with his 'Invincibles'. Not all went along with his approach.
Care to expand?
 

Coronis

International Coach
A slow XI

Mitchell
Boycott
Dravid
Kallis
Barrington
Border*
Knott+
Walker
Mahmood
McKenzie
Gibbs

Kallis is both the batting aggressor and the bowling aggressor. I could make it slower obviously but I wanted it at decent quality.
 

howitzer

State Captain
A slow XI

Mitchell
Boycott
Dravid
Kallis
Barrington
Border*
Knott+
Walker
Mahmood
McKenzie
Gibbs

Kallis is both the batting aggressor and the bowling aggressor. I could make it slower obviously but I wanted it at decent quality.
Goddard a good enough player to get into this side and definitely belongs.
 

Coronis

International Coach
Goddard a good enough player to get into this side and definitely belongs.
He was definitely in the shortlist - I was gonna have him instead of Boycott but then again having a slow XI without Boycott seemed wrong. Plus Mitchell was like the slowest close to ATG bat ever.
 

howitzer

State Captain
He was definitely in the shortlist - I was gonna have him instead of Boycott but then again having a slow XI without Boycott seemed wrong. Plus Mitchell was like the slowest close to ATG bat ever.
Fair enough. I think his bowling is still enough to get him in over Walker, even if he has to bat lower down though.
 

subshakerz

International Coach
Doubt it. Too heavily dictated by the team.

And how is success graded?
Well I already got you to agree that captaincy normally accounts for 15/20 percent of the results.

You need to then follow this logic and agree that then captaincy is a secondary skill as much if not more impactful than others.

After that, all I need you to do is to see how it would apply in an ATG context assuming ATG opposition.

Are you willing to have your assumptions challenged in this regard?
 

kyear2

International Coach
Well I already got you to agree that captaincy normally accounts for 15/20 percent of the results.

You need to then follow this logic and agree that then captaincy is a secondary skill as much if not more impactful than others.

After that, all I need you to do is to see how it would apply in an ATG context assuming ATG opposition.

Are you willing to have your assumptions challenged in this regard?
Please stop. It was a number out of my ass mid conversation. But knowing you, it'll be quoted till the end of time.

Honestly don't think I care enough about this one to argue it or be challenged.

Don't think it's that impactful, at least not for good teams, and even worse, it's impossible to identify success, being incredibly subjective.
 

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