The ATG Teams General arguing/discussing thread

[kyear2]

Imran wasn't a bad tactician. But that wasn't his strength. It was unifying the team, disciplining them and inspiring them.

He relied often on Miandad for tactical advice which captain are meant to do anyways, consult with deputies.

But I agree Imran the captain overshadows his other achievements. Even Proctor himself said Imran was underrated.


Wasim wasn't discovered by Imran. Waqar was.

Was he? I agree Botham was over rated (lived on reputation long after that's all it was), think Dev always was. But Imran was seen as being behind Lillee, Marshall and Hadlee as a bowler, and while some probably disagree on Lillee, that's the belief.

Re Miandad, I've read that he often was the one who set the fields, that's a bit more than relying on, but understood, delegation and all that.

I think, like coaching in the NFL, once you pass the standard of not horrible, and being a motivator you can win. A great coach or captain can't out coach or out captain the talent, but they can ruin a good team.

Is that fair?

 

[kyear2]

Ooh I’d love to see how Imran would try and discipline Bradman.

The challenge wouldn't be Bradman, Sobers has always said no one could stop him from partying or make him adhere to a curfew.

In any event, don't think anyone but Bradman would be in charge of such a team. He had the most gravitas.

 

[subshakerz]

Was he? I agree Botham was over rated (lived on reputation long after that's all it was), think Dev always was. But Imran was seen as being behind Lillee, Marshall and Hadlee as a bowler, and while some probably disagree on Lillee, that's the belief.

Imran was seen as allrounder and captain first and was generally compared with Hadlee, Botham and Kapil, usually out ahead of them. He probably would have been rated up there with Lillee and Marshall if he wasn't injured in 83, as he was already seen as the best bowler in the world at that point, Wisden Cricketer of the Year, but was down for two years and when he returned Marshall was in full bloom.

Re Miandad, I've read that he often was the one who set the fields, that's a bit more than relying on, but understood, delegation and all that.

That's an exaggeration. Miandad often gave Imran too much advice and he told him to shut up often lol. But he did have the odd gem, like advising Imran to drop Qadir for Qasim for the pivotal final test against India in 87.

I think, like coaching in the NFL, once you pass the standard of not horrible, and being a motivator you can win. A great coach or captain can't out coach or out captain the talent, but they can ruin a good team.

Is that fair?

It's quite contextual. A heavily professional side needs motivation less, true. But a fractured and ill-disciplined side like Pakistan needed someone like Imran, a patriarch of sort and leader-by-example.

 

[subshakerz]

The challenge wouldn't be Bradman, Sobers has always said no one could stop him from partying or make him adhere to a curfew.

Imran was a partier himself and encouraged Wasim to join. His thing was always to not let it affect your cricket.

 

[kyear2]

Which Test captains had the greatest effect on their team's fortunes?

Plus, the canniest captaincy tactics, the zaniest declarations, the luckiest toss winners, the overachievers, and more

www.thecricketmonthly.com

Found this while reading just now, ends with somewhat of a similar question as asked above. Spoiler, it was Bradman.

 

[kyear2]

Imran was seen as allrounder and captain first and was generally compared with Hadlee, Botham and Kapil, usually out ahead of them. He probably would have been rated up there with Lillee and Marshall if he wasn't injured in 83, as he was already seen as the best bowler in the world at that point, Wisden Cricketer of the Year, but was down for two years and when he returned Marshall was in full bloom.


That's an exaggeration. Miandad often gave Imran too much advice and he told him to shut up often lol. But he did have the odd gem, like advising Imran to drop Qadir for Qasim for the pivotal final test against India in 87.


It's quite contextual. A heavily professional side needs motivation less, true. But a fractured and ill-disciplined side like Pakistan needed someone like Imran, a patriarch of sort and leader-by-example.

Can agree to that.

Would also say it shouldn't get to that in the first place.

I've never rated captaincy much, but agree that for bad teams it matters more, though you're still not going to be winning.

Great teams can run on auto pilot, once you don't have a bad one ruining the culture or damaging morale.

 

[subshakerz]

I've never rated captaincy much, but agree that for bad teams it matters more, though you're still not going to be winning.

I would say the better the quality your team and poorer your opposition, the less captaincy matters. If an ATG side was playing an equally ATG side, captaincy makes a difference. If they are playing Zimbabwe, it doesn't matter.

But it does matter a lot for poor or mid teams. Look at the stark difference in results for a competitive team like England from Root to Stokes.

Great captains like Imran and Ranatunga can transform their sides. Imran took his team from mid tier to top tier, Ranatunga from bottom tier to mid tier.

Great teams can run on auto pilot, once you don't have a bad one ruining the culture or damaging morale.

Yes. Anyone could have captained Australia between 99 to 2007 (though I think a better captain than Ponting wouldn't have lost Ashes 2005). The real test came when Ponting lost quality players and he flubbed it.

 

[Coronis]

That's an exaggeration. Miandad often gave Imran too much advice and he told him to shut up often lol. But he did have the odd gem, like advising Imran to drop Qadir for Qasim for the pivotal final test against India in 87.

Took a real brain to drop Qadir outside of Pakistan…

Imran was a partier himself and encouraged Wasim to join. His thing was always to not let it affect your cricket.

C’mon Donny come have some drinks with the boys.

Go **** yourself. And don’t call me Donny.

(my imagining of how that convo goes)

 

[kyear2]

I would say the better the quality your team and poorer your opposition, the less captaincy matters. If an ATG side was playing an equally ATG side, captaincy makes a difference. If they are playing Zimbabwe, it doesn't matter.

But it does matter a lot for poor or mid teams. Look at the stark difference in results for a competitive team like England from Root to Stokes.

Great captains like Imran and Ranatunga can transform their sides. Imran took his team from mid tier to top tier, Ranatunga from bottom tier to mid tier.


Yes. Anyone could have captained Australia between 99 to 2007 (though I think a better captain than Ponting wouldn't have lost Ashes 2005). The real test came when Ponting lost quality players and he flubbed it.

No.....

And it would be Bradman regardless, and do we really know how great a captain he was? His strength, weaknesses etc...I'm sure @Coronis, @peterhrt, @Patience and Accuracy+Gut, or @JBMAC / @Line and Length can provide some insight.

 

[kyear2]

Which Test captains had the greatest effect on their team's fortunes?

Plus, the canniest captaincy tactics, the zaniest declarations, the luckiest toss winners, the overachievers, and more

www.thecricketmonthly.com

Found this while reading just now, ends with somewhat of a similar question as asked above. Spoiler, it was Bradman.

Oh, there is one thing that this article agreed with me about, bowlers doesn't make the best captains, they tend to over bowl themselves. Imran was an exception, but we know part of the reason for that. Sobers and Benaud just overdid it. And no, Sobers and Tendulkar were not good captains. At all.

 

[Coronis]

Its hard for Bradman obviously because his individual impact as a player was so insane, it would almost always overshadow his own captaincy to a large degree.

I know he was a strict and aggressive captain, prioritising a win above anything else (maybe he would support Bazball?).

Whilst 1948 is most recognised obviously, I still think his most impressive feat as captain was winning the Ashes in 36/37. 2 down with 3 to play many players and captains would no doubt have given up. After his reversal of the batting order and victory in the third test they went on to win 3-2, not only being the only team to win a series from 0-2 down but also winning the Ashes at home, which Australia had not managed for 12 years, in fact losing their previous two home series 1-4.

 

[subshakerz]

No.....

And it would be Bradman regardless, and do we really know how great a captain he was? His strength, weaknesses etc...I'm sure @Coronis, @peterhrt, @Patience and Accuracy+Gut, or @JBMAC / @Line and Length can provide some insight.

Of course in an ATG vs ATG game, captaincy matters. At the very least, tactical captaincy does. Which bowler you choose for spells, batting orders, all this matters if the margin for error is lower and the other team is more capable of taking advantage of a mistake.

Inspiring captaincy like Imran matters more if this ATG team is facing some superior superhuman opposition.

 

[subshakerz]

Took a real brain to drop Qadir outside of Pakistan…

Qadir wasn't as bad in England and WI in the occasional spells. In this case he was playing India, and Imran put a lot of faith in him but Indian bats read him easily. They would shout 'googles' when they saw him bowl a googly and it annoyed Qadir.

Nevertheless, Imran made the right call at the right time and Pakistan won the series.

C’mon Donny come have some drinks with the boys.

Go **** yourself. And don’t call me Donny.

(my imagining of how that convo goes)

Lol.

 

[kyear2]

Of course in an ATG vs ATG game, captaincy matters. At the very least, tactical captaincy does. Which bowler you choose for spells, batting orders, all this matters if the margin for error is lower and the other team is more capable of taking advantage of a mistake.

Inspiring captaincy like Imran matters more if this ATG team is facing some superior superhuman opposition.

So many points to make...

You just acknowledged that Imran wasn't the best tactical captain

You also stated that in a great or professional unit it's less important

In this scenario a tactical captain is more important than an inspirational one. These guys are the best ever, and most of them (the bowlers) are accustomed and more than capable of setting their own fields.

Bradman is the better choice for multiple reasons,

1) The most important aspect of captaincy is respect and no one would command more respect than the first name of the team sheet.

2) Bradman is assured to make any such team, Imran isn't. The last vote we had he beat Hadlee by 3 votes, the ongoing one he's 4th in said votes. He's one of only about 5 borderline guys and the least secure.

3) Bagapath once gave a scathing analysis of Imran's captaincy, and you mentioned that being a strict disciplinarian is what his team needed, it's not what this one would tolerate.

Plus the last such vote for captaincy wasn't nearly close.

 

[subshakerz]

So many points to make...

You just acknowledged that Imran wasn't the best tactical captain

You also stated that in a great or professional unit it's less important

In this scenario a tactical captain is more important than an inspirational one. These guys are the best ever, and most of them (the bowlers) are accustomed and more than capable of setting their own fields.

Bradman is the better choice for multiple reasons,

1) The most important aspect of captaincy is respect and no one would command more respect than the first name of the team sheet.

2) Bradman is assured to make any such team, Imran isn't. The last vote we had he beat Hadlee by 3 votes, the ongoing one he's 4th in said votes. He's one of only about 5 borderline guys and the least secure.

3) Bagapath once gave a scathing analysis of Imran's captaincy, and you mentioned that being a strict disciplinarian is what his team needed, it's not what this one would tolerate.

Plus the last such vote for captaincy wasn't nearly close.

I think you are under the misapprehension that I think Imran, by virtue of being a great captain, has to captain the ATG XI. Not necessarily.

I acknowledge that Bradman has a good case too based on stature and perhaps a bit better tactically. I don't think though 'best player = best captain' is a good reason by itself though. Tendulkar and Lara weren't good captains at all.

But just acknowledge my point, that tactical captaincy would make a bit of a difference if facing another ATG side capable of defeating it. I am fine with Bradman here.

If facing a superhuman side superior to this ATG team, I would want Imran as captain based on 'cornered tigers' philosophy. He is the most capable of rousing this team to meet a greater challenge and likely would perform to meet it as he did in his career.

You catch my drift?

 

[kyear2]

I think you are under the misapprehension that I think Imran, by virtue of being a great captain, has to captain the ATG XI. Not necessarily.

I acknowledge that Bradman has a good case too based on stature and perhaps a bit better tactically. I don't think though 'best player = best captain' is a good reason. Tendulkar and Lara weren't good captains at all.

But just acknowledge my point, that tactical captaincy would make a bit of a difference if facing another ATG side capable of defeating it. I am fine with Bradman here.

If facing a superhuman side superior to this ATG team, I would want Imran as captain based on 'cornered tigers' philosophy. He is the most capable of rousing this team to meet a greater challenge and likely would perform to meet it as he did in his career.

You catch my drift?

I don't want nor need another protracted Imran battle with you.

My points were these guys, even with an equally talented squad wouldn't need motivation. Half the guys also used to set their own fields.
And, there no assurance he's even making the team. CW rates him higher than most and he's still a distant 4th in the poll and not that far from Wasim.

 

[Prince EWS]

Daily reminder that Head > Wade.

 

[subshakerz]

My points were these guys, even with an equally talented squad wouldn't need motivation. Half the guys also used to set their own fields.
And, there no assurance he's even making the team. CW rates him higher than most and he's still a distant 4th in the poll and not that far from Wasim.

I love that you feel the need to pour cold water on your own selection of Imran. Almost like picking him made you feel sick.

 

[subshakerz]

But @kyear2 can you at least acknowledge in theory in a tight ATG vs ATG battle, tactics from a captain do make a difference and it's not just some robots battling each other?

Because it almost seems like in your philosophy, an ATG XI wouldn't even need a dressing room. They can just walk straight on to the field from their hotels and play as scripted.

 

[kyear2]

How do you rank the best captain in an individual Test?

The Captaincy Performance Index takes into account the team's performances and the captain's individual contribution to the team

www.espncricinfo.com