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How much did slip cordons affect McGrath's and Wasim's records?

capt_Luffy

Cricketer Of The Year
Again, @kyear2 will you please answer my question. How come Don and Sobers are on the same tier as batsmen while Headley is an ATG?? It's simple really, according to you Secondary skills can't make a player jump a tier over but only be ranked ahead on their tier. Hence Imran isn't Top tier. So surely Sobers and Don are close as batsmen but then Headley being an ATG, with 19 Tests (including B English teams) and 40 runs less average falls flat.
 

kyear2

International Coach
Again, @kyear2 will you please answer my question. How come Don and Sobers are on the same tier as batsmen while Headley is an ATG?? It's simple really, according to you Secondary skills can't make a player jump a tier over but only be ranked ahead on their tier. Hence Imran isn't Top tier. So surely Sobers and Don are close as batsmen but then Headley being an ATG, with 19 Tests (including B English teams) and 40 runs less average falls flat.
Answered you in the other thread, you guys are awful whiny this morning.

If you want to decide that Headley isn't an ATG for you, that fine. We differ in opinion.

You guys know that's ok right?
 

capt_Luffy

Cricketer Of The Year
Answered you in the other thread, you guys are awful whiny this morning.

If you want to decide that Headley isn't an ATG for you, that fine. We differ in opinion.

You guys know that's ok right?
No, it would had been okay if you followed a similar train of logic for everyone. Subs posts plenty of ****, but atleast he is consistent with his logic. And you literally didn't answered my only question, how are Sobers and Don close as batsman, and so are Sobers and Headley?? That was the question, and you didn't answer that.
 

subshakerz

Hall of Fame Member
Is it? I've asked the same question previously. If it's far behind, would any of the successive powerhouses from the 70's from Australia, WI, Aus, SA have swapped those low important slip fielders for a better lower order. It's a simple question.

Another simple question, which would be more detrimental to a team's success, consistent dropped catches, or not much contribution from their no. 11?

You'll create narratives with nothing but a spread sheet, having removed actually watching and applying nuance to see how success was achieved. Somehow stat sheet stuffing is more important than winning. Is India going to drop Bumrah if he doesn't improve his batting?

Again, yes, lower order batting is important, it can help save to save games, but not to the point where you select all of your bowlers based on their batting acumen. Makes no sense.
Again, slip quality is soooo important, vastly important, yet you also have zero idea how you would translate these into any tangible guesstimate to get an idea of impact, so in effect it is meaningless also to bring into the conversation. We could be talking about at best 10 catches difference by a great slip cordon for a bowler.

You can't have it both ways, assert it is being essential for success yet also completely impossible to even get a vague estimate of.
 

subshakerz

Hall of Fame Member
Imran starts off as the 8th best bowler, 8th. He's not in my nor most people's top tier. That doesn't include the ball tampering and perceived home umpiring advantages that you believe that I made up. In the Cricinfo team he lost out 50 - 0 in the head to head, it wasn't close.

You think I have an agenda, the entire forum ranks the dude constantly 8th a a bowler, and yes, the referenced topics were factors for his home record and most accept that. Was it totally responsible, no, but he's also the only one from that era who had such a disproportionate home and away record, especially strange since Pakistan was supposedly the most difficult to play in. You believe it's all made up, the truth is somewhere in the middle.
The agenda becomes clear because you have dedicated multiple threads directly and indirectly to him, especially because it irks you he is a lock for many in an ATG side.

The agenda becomes clear when you only apply 'context' to him at home and not away. I will challenge you that I can make a convincing case that Imran for example was better than Marshall in Australia.
 

kyear2

International Coach
No, it would had been okay if you followed a similar train of logic for everyone. Subs posts plenty of ****, but atleast he is consistent with his logic. And you literally didn't answered my only question, how are Sobers and Don close as batsman, and so are Sobers and Headley?? That was the question, and you didn't answer that.
Where do I say Sobers and Headley were close?

You really have this stuck in your ass don't you.

All it meant was that it doesn't cover a weakness.

I understood the issue with Miller, that was a philosophical difference, this hill you've chosen to die on makes no sense.

And a discussion where I "seemed to agree to" months ago? Give it a rest, no one even suggested he's better.
 

capt_Luffy

Cricketer Of The Year
Where do I say Sobers and Headley were close?

You really have this stuck in your ass don't you.

All it meant was that it doesn't cover a weakness.

I understood the issue with Miller, that was a philosophical difference, this hill you've chosen to die on makes no sense.

And a discussion where I "seemed to agree to" months ago? Give it a rest, no one even suggested he's better.
And again, you literally said the difference in quality between Don and Sobers' batting is akin to that of Sachin and Richards......
 

kyear2

International Coach
And again, you literally said the difference in quality between Don and Sobers' batting is akin to that of Sachin and Richards......
No, oh my God no. Are you deliberately being difficult.

Bradman

Then the other 4 are basically the same.

Sobers / Tendulkar / Richards / Hobbs

The difference between Sobers and Bradman is the same as the other 3 and Bradman. Which I never said was miniscule.

I know what you're doing and you'll be arguing yourself because I'm not responding to you and this anymore either.
 

capt_Luffy

Cricketer Of The Year
No, oh my God no. Are you deliberately being difficult.

Bradman

Then the other 4 are basically the same.

Sobers / Tendulkar / Richards / Hobbs

The difference between Sobers and Bradman is the same as the other 3 and Bradman. Which I never said was miniscule.

I know what you're doing and you'll be arguing yourself because I'm not responding to you and this anymore either.
Again, you literally said Don and Sobers are close the same way Tendulkar and Richards. Also, if Bradman is in a different tier to Sobers, then your whole argument that one can't jump tiers with secondary skills. But well, feel free to not reply.
 

subshakerz

Hall of Fame Member
I know what you're doing and you'll be arguing yourself because I'm not responding to you and this anymore either.
Y'know this would be a lot easier if you held a consistent line. At least acknowledge you have a communication issue that so many of us just think you switch your positions willy nilly rather calling everybody who sharply disagrees an idiot or bad faith.

Again, you literally said Don and Sobers are close the same way Tendulkar and Richards. Also, if Bradman is in a different tier to Sobers, then your whole argument that one can't jump tiers with secondary skills. But well, feel free to not reply.
The whole 'cant jump tiers' was just constructed for Imran, he didn't really mean it.
 

Xix2565

International Regular
Is it? I've asked the same question previously. If it's far behind, would any of the successive powerhouses from the 70's from Australia, WI, Aus, SA have swapped those low important slip fielders for a better lower order. It's a simple question.

Another simple question, which would be more detrimental to a team's success, consistent dropped catches, or not much contribution from their no. 11?

You'll create narratives with nothing but a spread sheet, having removed actually watching and applying nuance to see how success was achieved. Somehow stat sheet stuffing is more important than winning. Is India going to drop Bumrah if he doesn't improve his batting?

Again, yes, lower order batting is important, it can help save to save games, but not to the point where you select all of your bowlers based on their batting acumen. Makes no sense.
It is because again, bowling and batting matters a lot more. That good teams have had good fielders is a nice cherry on top, but not a big factor of what made them good. If you can't grasp that you might as well give up on understanding cricket.
 

the big bambino

International Captain
Ahh brilliant. Who have I knocked down? Bradman, the guy is is undisputed as the greatest ever? Who else?

We didn't have spicy pitches, we had two that were fast, one that was slow as hell, one slow and uneven and one so flat that it was dead. Again, you're thinking of Hadlee and to a lesser extent extent, Lillee.

Protective equipment was introduced in WSC, so all of Marshall's career, the batsmen were protected. You're again thinking about Lillee, easy mistake.

How did slower over rates help the bowlers? and if you think that was new, look into Hutton's career.

Also, there was a converted effort to stunt our progress and countless rules were introduced with that in mind, not to add narratives created. Despite what we hear now, they weren't pleased that the boys from the Caribbean dominated world cricket for so long.
Didn't they use motor cycle helmets in WSC? Some complained they restricted vision! Compared to modern designs the old equipment was akin to putting a saucepan on your head. (I'll refrain from tinfoil jokes). Uptake of equipment was slow too. Not everyone wore them - or if they did not all the time. Batsman have learned to exploit the improved designs of helmets and increased their shot range as a result. You never saw ramp shots or charging the pace bowler in the day. Protective equipment has assisted that development. So bowlers like Marshall would be facing a very different situation due to protective equipment than he did while playing.

I've been persuaded by the saying a champion in one era would've been a champion in any other. All they need is the opportunity. In truth you see this lived out every day. Generally overall standards incrementally improve. While individual form declines. Yet that didn't stop champions like Lloyd, Warne or McGrath competing or even dominating towards the end of their long careers. They could only have done so if they adapted to the improvement in standards evident throughout their careers.

But no team relied on intimidation, and the specific rules of the day that encouraged it, as much as the WI of the 70s/80s. So much so that it makes references to Hutton and Lillee irrelevant. Hutton had slow over rates that one time. Lillee proved his adaptability coming back from a stress fracture. It was the WI who exploited the lack of protective equipment, sedate overrates and the short pitched delivery to a degree no others did.

But they couldn't do that now. There are quotas on overs and bouncers. There is protective equipment everyone uses and batsmen emboldened by that assurance to take on the bowlers such as the WI then never knew. They were lucky too. They found an Australia embroiled in Packer and SA upheavals. Plus the retirement of ageing stars. The Indian team then struggled to play the rising ball. Contrast that with the hard wicket winners they have today. England then was passive and resigned against the WI. Not the confrontational hard heads like Stokes (and guided by McCallum) now.

Hard not see some of those bowling averages heading decidedly north. Perhaps a parallel can be found with the decline of WI cricket overall. They've provided some talented players but the team has disintegrated. I wonder if part of the explanation is an inability to adapt away from the archaic standard set by their 70/80s sides? Some great players of that era have overseen the decline. perhaps reflecting their inability to change as well.
 

kyear2

International Coach
Didn't they use motor cycle helmets in WSC? Some complained they restricted vision! Compared to modern designs the old equipment was akin to putting a saucepan on your head. (I'll refrain from tinfoil jokes). Uptake of equipment was slow too. Not everyone wore them - or if they did not all the time. Batsman have learned to exploit the improved designs of helmets and increased their shot range as a result. You never saw ramp shots or charging the pace bowler in the day. Protective equipment has assisted that development. So bowlers like Marshall would be facing a very different situation due to protective equipment than he did while playing.

I've been persuaded by the saying a champion in one era would've been a champion in any other. All they need is the opportunity. In truth you see this lived out every day. Generally overall standards incrementally improve. While individual form declines. Yet that didn't stop champions like Lloyd, Warne or McGrath competing or even dominating towards the end of their long careers. They could only have done so if they adapted to the improvement in standards evident throughout their careers.

But no team relied on intimidation, and the specific rules of the day that encouraged it, as much as the WI of the 70s/80s. So much so that it makes references to Hutton and Lillee irrelevant. Hutton had slow over rates that one time. Lillee proved his adaptability coming back from a stress fracture. It was the WI who exploited the lack of protective equipment, sedate overrates and the short pitched delivery to a degree no others did.

But they couldn't do that now. There are quotas on overs and bouncers. There is protective equipment everyone uses and batsmen emboldened by that assurance to take on the bowlers such as the WI then never knew. They were lucky too. They found an Australia embroiled in Packer and SA upheavals. Plus the retirement of ageing stars. The Indian team then struggled to play the rising ball. Contrast that with the hard wicket winners they have today. England then was passive and resigned against the WI. Not the confrontational hard heads like Stokes (and guided by McCallum) now.

Hard not see some of those bowling averages heading decidedly north. Perhaps a parallel can be found with the decline of WI cricket overall. They've provided some talented players but the team has disintegrated. I wonder if part of the explanation is an inability to adapt away from the archaic standard set by their 70/80s sides? Some great players of that era have overseen the decline. perhaps reflecting their inability to change as well.
I must say, for something as devoid of logic as this was, it was very well written.

If there wasn't footage of matches played in 83 / 84 one could understand the statements regarding helmets, but there is. So really don't know what else to say in regards to that. Marshall exhibited skills that only Bumrah of those of recent lineage, has even shown a propensity to. He played in an era of helmets and protection, when you're skilled and fast it doesn't matter. But if Joffra was able to hit Steve Smith, one can only wonder what the quartet would have done.

To say no team relied on intimidation besides the west indies isn't only disingenuous, but a flat out lie. Lindwall and Miller used it effectively, and they learned it from Lillee and Thompson. Lillee was using it from 71 up until WSC, and likely beyond. That's one of the things that was disappointing about the establishment, embodied somewhat by hypocrites like Benaud, who extolled the virtues of Lillee and co, but condemned the WI for doing exactly the same.

Your entire next line is bullshit. Australia after the war didn't capitalize on an England team weakened by WW losses and fatigue? Australia don't dominate until we ran out of steam, not to mention the retirements of every great bowler from every other team. Ambrose, Walsh, Donald, Wasim, need I go further? And a submissive England, that was the template for Aussie success.
And why were those rules changed? As much as it's pretended now that the establishment enjoyed the domination of the men from the west indies, nothing was further from the truth. They did everything they could to stop the dominance, not only with rules on the field, but continues till today with rules off it as well.

And with regards to adaptability? No one did it better, Marshall adapted to cutters and movement, Ambrose was the master of accuracy and bounce even before McGrath and never over used the short ball.

And I wonder what was the archaic standard set by the teams of the 80's. Aggressive batsmen, skilled, fast bowlers and great catching and fielding? The same template that Australia and SA followed to success?
The disintegration is indeed real, poor leadership and disorganized boards and an overall lack of resources that has been safely kept within the domain of the big three to this day, has ensured it stays that way. We rose to dominance on the back of grass roots talent and on the field leadership... bureaucracy, greed and the likes compromised that, having shared interests when dealing with governments from different countries didn't help either.

But imagine, the greatest all rounder and bowler of all time originating from a country of 166 SQ miles. Vivian and Curtly coming from one around the same size, Lara's only slightly larger.
So now with smaller populations, competing interests, many of which are more lucrative, and a lack of resources, what's to be expected. Even when they are choosing cricket, the board can't compete with large T20 franchises and those players too are lost, it at least focusing on a different aspect of the sport.

But your post, while elegant had the subtlety and possibly purpose, of a Trump speech. And while I can't make you, It would be greatly appreciated if you kept your opinions of things you don't understand, to yourself.
 

kyear2

International Coach
I also find it hilarious how some (one) might agree with that post, with how we would duplicate that success playing today. But restricted bouncers and over limits is relatively easier to overcome that neutral umpires and the inability to bring drinks on the field, well at least the covers.
 

Coronis

International Coach
I must say, for something as devoid of logic as this was, it was very well written.

If there wasn't footage of matches played in 83 / 84 one could understand the statements regarding helmets, but there is. So really don't know what else to say in regards to that. Marshall exhibited skills that only Bumrah of those of recent lineage, has even shown a propensity to. He played in an era of helmets and protection, when you're skilled and fast it doesn't matter. But if Joffra was able to hit Steve Smith, one can only wonder what the quartet would have done.

To say no team relied on intimidation besides the west indies isn't only disingenuous, but a flat out lie. Lindwall and Miller used it effectively, and they learned it from Lillee and Thompson. Lillee was using it from 71 up until WSC, and likely beyond. That's one of the things that was disappointing about the establishment, embodied somewhat by hypocrites like Benaud, who extolled the virtues of Lillee and co, but condemned the WI for doing exactly the same.

Your entire next line is bull****. Australia after the war didn't capitalize on an England team weakened by WW losses and fatigue? Australia don't dominate until we ran out of steam, not to mention the retirements of every great bowler from every other team. Ambrose, Walsh, Donald, Wasim, need I go further? And a submissive England, that was the template for Aussie success.
And why were those rules changed? As much as it's pretended now that the establishment enjoyed the domination of the men from the west indies, nothing was further from the truth. They did everything they could to stop the dominance, not only with rules on the field, but continues till today with rules off it as well.

And with regards to adaptability? No one did it better, Marshall adapted to cutters and movement, Ambrose was the master of accuracy and bounce even before McGrath and never over used the short ball.

And I wonder what was the archaic standard set by the teams of the 80's. Aggressive batsmen, skilled, fast bowlers and great catching and fielding? The same template that Australia and SA followed to success?
The disintegration is indeed real, poor leadership and disorganized boards and an overall lack of resources that has been safely kept within the domain of the big three to this day, has ensured it stays that way. We rose to dominance on the back of grass roots talent and on the field leadership... bureaucracy, greed and the likes compromised that, having shared interests when dealing with governments from different countries didn't help either.

But imagine, the greatest all rounder and bowler of all time originating from a country of 166 SQ miles. Vivian and Curtly coming from one around the same size, Lara's only slightly larger.
So now with smaller populations, competing interests, many of which are more lucrative, and a lack of resources, what's to be expected. Even when they are choosing cricket, the board can't compete with large T20 franchises and those players too are lost, it at least focusing on a different aspect of the sport.

But your post, while elegant had the subtlety and possibly purpose, of a Trump speech. And while I can't make you, It would be greatly appreciated if you kept your opinions of things you don't understand, to yourself.
Is the skill of the bowler in question more important in hitting the batsman or rather their pace and bounce?
 

subshakerz

Hall of Fame Member
But no team relied on intimidation, and the specific rules of the day that encouraged it, as much as the WI of the 70s/80s. So much so that it makes references to Hutton and Lillee irrelevant. Hutton had slow over rates that one time. Lillee proved his adaptability coming back from a stress fracture. It was the WI who exploited the lack of protective equipment, sedate overrates and the short pitched delivery to a degree no others did.
You mean this Lillee?


Or maybe his colleague Thommo, who said he liked to see blood on the pitch?
 

the big bambino

International Captain
When they did it it was attacking and great entertainment. When we did it, it was intimidation and against the spirit of the game.

As I said, as subtle as a Trump speech.
It's a funny feeling being told off for lacking subtlety by someone fabricating a quote and attributing it to me.

About as honest as an politician.

And subshakerz - Just because there were other examples of intimidation in cricket doesn't mean any team relied on it as much as the WI.
 

subshakerz

Hall of Fame Member
And subshakerz - Just because there were other examples of intimidation in cricket doesn't mean any team relied on it as much as the WI.
No doubt WI pacers used intimidation.

But they were inspired from those tactics by getting hammered by Lillee and Thommo in the 75/76 series, no? At least that is what they said in documentaries. And Lillee and Thommo were doing that earlier to England in 1975. Relentless high pace bouncer vollies.

 

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