How much did slip cordons affect McGrath's and Wasim's records?

[subshakerz]

I find it endlessly humorous that @kyear2 would bench literally the best players in existence because of team quotas.

Sobers isn't a member of my bowling attack. He's in the team as my premier batsman, the scenario is stupid.

Right, so you'll bench Sobers. Got it.

@kyear2 Why are you dodging my question related to the thread topic?

 

[kyear2]

What if Pollock was a Kohli-level bat?

When that player ever exists we have have that discussion.

It's also not possible for a player to sustain the bowling and batting loads that would be required. That **** wore Sobers down.

I've heard other all rounders discuss it as well.

 

[kyear2]

I refuse to believe you watched the game because that's literally the exact opposite conclusion everyone came away with.

Bumrah and Hardik changed the course of the game in 2 overs.

 

[smash84]

This slightly less argument always comes up.

Bumrah is the best bowler on earth right now. How the hell is it a consideration that he's not selected for anything based on his batting.

There's no scenario if I had to choose between McGrath or Bumrah and Pollock where I'm chosing Pollock.

Have we somehow forgotten that the primary responsibility of the bowlers is to bowl?

Between McGrath and Hadlee I will choose Hadlee every time.

 

[subshakerz]

When that player ever exists we have have that discussion.

No we want that discussion now.

 

[subshakerz]

Bumrah and Hardik changed the course of the game in 2 overs.

Yes because they were bowling against a SA bunny tail.

 

[smash84]

Bumrah and Hardik changed the course of the game in 2 overs.

Lol, go back and read the Cricinfo commentary and come back again.

 

[kyear2]

I find it endlessly humorous that @kyear2 would bench literally the best players in existence because of team quotas.



Right, so you'll bench Sobers. Got it.

@kyear2 Why are you dodging my question related to the thread topic?

How the **** is that benching Sobers, are u being deliberately daft?

I'm not dodging your question, it's a stupid ass question and none of you know the answer to.

Instead of the impossible questions, the takeaway should be that quite possibly it's something that should be given greater importance and focus to.

And even more so, but less likely, give a little more respect and recognition to the guys that combined the skills as brilliantly as they did.
Sobers, Hammond, Kallis, Ponting, Chappell, Richards were all legitimate ATG batsmen who were also ATG catchers.

So instead of invention Kohli / Pollock hybrids, how about recognizing the ones that exist.

But yeah, are you choosing Pollock over McGrath or Bumrah?

A 35 averaging Hazelwood over Bumrah?

 

[kyear2]

Between McGrath and Hadlee I will choose Hadlee every time.

And Imran or McGrath, the same I assume.

 

[smash84]

And Imran or McGrath, the same I assume.

Yes

 

[subshakerz]

How the **** is that benching Sobers, are u being deliberately daft?

It literally is. You are benching Sobers for Martin. It sounds bad but it is what you believe. Don't worry I would be embarassed if I had that view too.

I'm not dodging your question, it's a stupid ass question and none of you know the answer to.

Refusing to engage with the question is dodging. And stop acting like it's some complicated equation. Just give me a broad range of catches you think a great cordons would get a bowler net in their career. Otherwise am I to assume you think it's a small number?

And even more so, but less likely, give a little more respect and recognition to the guys that combined the skills as brilliantly as they did.
Sobers, Hammond, Kallis, Ponting, Chappell, Richards were all legitimate ATG batsmen who were also ATG catchers.

Ok but what does a great catcher mean in numbers?

But yeah, are you choosing Pollock over McGrath or Bumrah?

A 35 averaging Hazelwood over Bumrah?

Pollock's batting isn't good enough to sway.

Hazelwood isn't a worldclass bowler.

 

[kyear2]

It literally is. You are benching Sobers for Martin. It sounds bad but it is what you believe.


Refusing to engage with the question is dodging. And stop acting like it's some complicated equation. Just give me a broad range of catches you think a great cordons would get a bowler net in their career. Otherwise am I to assume you think it's a small number?


Ok but what does a great catcher mean in numbers?


Pollock's batting isn't good enough to sway.

Hazelwood isn't a worldclass bowler.

How the **** are you telling me what I believe? You are seriously irritating though.

You can kindly assume what ever the **** you like. I genuinely don't care.

What I would suggest you do is try watching cricket, old and new and figure it out for yourself.

I will say though, that anyone with eyes that saw any of the great teams from the WI (76 - 88), Australia of the early 2000's, or the SA team that followed... Or any of Ambrose's / Lillee's / Hadlee's careers, know how vital the slip cordons were to their success.

The WI / Aus / SA teams wouldn't have been as successful without the at times, ridiculous support from their cordons.

Not like that would sway your opinion on the matter in any way.

 

[kyear2]

It literally is. You are benching Sobers for Martin. It sounds bad but it is what you believe. Don't worry I would be embarassed if I had that view too.


Refusing to engage with the question is dodging. And stop acting like it's some complicated equation. Just give me a broad range of catches you think a great cordons would get a bowler net in their career. Otherwise am I to assume you think it's a small number?


Ok but what does a great catcher mean in numbers?


Pollock's batting isn't good enough to sway.

Hazelwood isn't a worldclass bowler.

What? Pollock averaged almost as much as Imran

And Hazelwood isn't? Even with that average? You mean that we can discern quality outside of averages? Strange, seems like I was trying to explain that earlier... Weird isn't it.

 

[subshakerz]

How the **** are you telling me what I believe? You are seriously irritating though.

You can kindly assume what ever the **** you like. I genuinely don't care.

What I would suggest you do is try watching cricket, old and new and figure it out for yourself.

I will say though, that anyone with eyes that saw any of the great teams from the WI (76 - 88), Australia of the early 2000's, or the SA team that followed... Or any of Ambrose's / Lillee's / Hadlee's careers, know how vital the slip cordons were to their success.

The WI / Aus / SA teams wouldn't have been as successful without the at times, ridiculous support from their cordons.

Not like that would sway your opinion on the matter in any way.

Dude stop getting flustered, we are having a gentleman chat.

Do you think a great cordons can guarantee at least 50 more catches over a career, compared to a crap one?

 

[kyear2]

Yes

I wouldn't argue that Imran has a case for an AT XI... Just wouldn't be over McGrath for me, not a chance. And again, just for me.

So we can agree to disagree.

 

[subshakerz]

What? Pollock averaged almost as much as Imran

And Hazelwood isn't? Even with that average? You mean that we can discern quality outside of averages? Strange, seems like I was trying to explain that earlier... Weird isn't it.

Wait are we talking tests or ODIs?

 

[kyear2]

Dude stop getting flustered, we are having a gentleman chat.

Do you think a great cordons can guarantee at least 50 more catches over a career, compared to a crap one?

I'm not flustered, you're trying 5 year old manipulative tactics to get a response to which I've already given one.

My answer with regards to team success is the best I have for you. It makes teams better, ask Murali and I'm sure there's record of Warne speaking of Healy, Taylor and Jr.

The 70's Australia team seemed to have set a template and it was followed to a T successively and successfully by the teams mentioned above.

 

[Bolo.]

I want to come back to this. If you watched today, and I know it's T20, but we've seen him do it in tests as well, how can you defend the nonsense about bowlers being able to know how to bat?

According to your thought process, guys like him shouldn't be selected. If you were choosing a team to represent earth of current players, is he making it or does he weaken the batting too much?

@smash84 welcomed to answer as well.

You'll be full of **** sometimes.

A performance in a single game of T20, a format with a completely different selection policy. That was won more by the difference in batting quality of bowlers (not just RSAs failure, but also Axar) than Bumrah's bowling.

VS

A philosophy that picks Martin over Sobers in the format we are actually discussing

-------------

Who would win?

 

[subshakerz]

I'm not flustered, you're trying 5 year old manipulative tactics to get a response to which I've already given one.

My answer with regards to team success is the best I have for you. It makes teams better, ask Murali and I'm sure there's record of Warne speaking of Healy, Taylor and Jr.

The 70's Australia team seemed to have set a template and it was followed to a T successively and successfully by the teams mentioned above.

Here's why I think you are refusing to answer this: the moment you give some semblance of a range for catches gained by a great cordon (which you do have in your mind and otherwise would if this conversation was about anyone else), I will immediately apply that to a statistical estimate of impact on Wasim and McGrath's careers.

And because you already have their ranking set in stone, you will refuse to entertain this idea.

It's kinda pathetic though. I prefer if you actually stuck by the logic of your stated principles. But you won't, even for a thread dedicated to the very point you have been trying to make.

 

[kyear2]

A performance in a single game of T20, a format with a completely different selection policy. That was won more by the difference in batting quality of bowlers (not just RSAs failure, but also Axar) than Bumrah's bowling.

VS

A philosophy that picks Martin over Sobers in the format we are actually discussing

-------------

Who would win?

I was clear to point out that it was a T20 game, but Bumrah is the best bowler in the world, and has similar exploits in test matches as well.

But according to your philosophy, he wouldn't make your team because he's a liability with the bat.

I'm just interested to see who else would share that sentiment.

And no, the premise of comparing Sobers and Martin is idiotic and wouldn't ever be competing for the same spot, considering that one is an ATG batsman.

But yeah, are you choosing, let's say Pollock over Bumrah?