The ATG Teams General arguing/discussing thread

[subshakerz]

Please read it. I said locks for me....

'Lock for you' = preference

 

[kyear2]

'Lock for you' = preference

Yes, I'm agreeing with you. What's the problem

 

[Line and Length]

Interest +1

Curious, would’ve expected Laker to have Lock in there. Dooland is a surprise. Sandham is an interesting choice from Hutton. Jackson too for Trueman. Presumably those three are all based on their personal domestic experiences.

I was surprised that Trueman didn't mention Tyson.

 

[Line and Length]

To save you the trouble, it's possible to view the book for free at

The Book of cricket lists : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

216 pages : 22 cm

archive.org

once you sign up (which costs nothing unless I'm missing something insidious; you can sign in with Google, if you want)

It's no trouble. I thought my filtering 3 lists at a time would focus comments on those particular lists. I don't intend posting every list but for those interested in seeing other aspects, the link is appreciated.

Here are the 3 lists I mentioned.

Derek Randall's Ten Greatest Fielders.
David Gower
Ken Taylor
Clive Lloyd
Phil Sharpe
Basharat Hassan
Colin Bland
Tony Greig
Viv Richards
Ian Botham
Bobby Simpson

Mike Brearley's Ten Greatest Slip Catchers
Bob Simpson
Phil Sharpe
Graham Roope
Tony Greig
Greg Chappell
Wally Hammond
Roland Butcher
Ian Botham
Mike Hendrick
Clive Lloyd

Godfrey Evans's Ten Greatest Wicket-Keepers
1 Don Tallon
=2 Rod Marsh, Alan Knott, Bob Taylor
5 Farokh Engineer
6 John Murray
7 John Waite
8 Wally Grout
=9 Wasim Bari, Syed Kirmani, Deryck Murray

The first two lists have obviously included team-mates and those from the England domestic scene while Evans has adopted a broader look. Surprised he ranked Marsh on the same level as Knott and Taylor.

Basharat Hassan was a notable fieldsman; in 1971 Wisden said that "his brilliance in the covers stamped him as one of the outstanding men in this position in the country." He is a Kenyan who played for Notts.

For those who prefer to have 3 lists at a time presented I will add Alec Bedser's Medium Pacers, Ted Dexter's Stroke players and D'Oliveira's Battlers tomorrow.

 

[Coronis]

If Barrington isn’t on battlers I riot.

 

[Line and Length]

If Barrington isn’t on battlers I riot.

I agree. Prepare the protest banners.

 

[Line and Length]

Alec Bedser’s Ten Greatest Medium-Pace Bowlers
Sydney Barnes
Maurice Tate
Hugh Trumble
Garfield Sobers
Bill Johnston
Amar Singh
Charlie Turner
Fazal Mahmood
George Lohmanmn
Ian Botham

Interesting that Bedser lists a number of players he wouldn't have seen. However, he says he spoke to past players like Jack Hobbs who gave him respect for their ability. He also played in a charity match with Amar Singh and said, "He could swing and cut the ball and had devilish pace of the wicket."

Ted Dexter’s Ten Greatest Stroke Players
Garfield Sobers
Graeme Pollock
Viv Richards
Barry Richards
Peter Burge
Colin Milburn
Nawab of Pataudi
George Emmett
Jim Parks
Peter May

On the other hand, Dexter notes, "I have concentrated my choice on players from my own era. All were a delight to watch for the fluency and range of strokes." He noted they were in no particular order other than Sobers being clearly number one. Pleased to see a lesser known Australian in Peter Burge cracking a mention.

@Coronis Break out the riot gear.

Basil D’Oliveira’s Ten Greatest Battlers
Barry Richards
Geoff Boycott
Graham Gooch
Rohan Kanhai
Viv Richards
Graeme Pollock
Zaheer Abbas
Greg Chappell
Colin Cowdrey
Garfield Sobers

I find the last list quite puzzling. D’Oliveira wrote. “As well as marvellous ability, all of these batsmen were also blessed with great fighting qualities.”
For me, a battler has great fighting qualities while having less than ‘marvellous ability’. I would have Ken Barrington and D’Oliveira himself high on my list.

Tomorrow I’ll add Gower’s Greatest left-handed batsmen, Holding’s Greatest W.I, fast bowlers and Milburn’s Greatest Entertainers.

 

[Coronis]

Alec Bedser’s Ten Greatest Medium-Pace Bowlers
Sydney Barnes
Maurice Tate
Hugh Trumble
Garfield Sobers
Bill Johnston
Amar Singh
Charlie Turner
Fazal Mahmood
George Lohmanmn
Ian Botham

Interesting that Bedser lists a number of players he wouldn't have seen. However, he says he spoke to past players like Jack Hobbs who gave him respect for their ability. He also played in a charity match with Amar Singh and said, "He could swing and cut the ball and had devilish pace of the wicket."

Ted Dexter’s Ten Greatest Stroke Players
Garfield Sobers
Graeme Pollock
Viv Richards
Barry Richards
Peter Burge
Colin Milburn
Nawab of Pataudi
George Emmett
Jim Parks
Peter May

On the other hand, Dexter notes, "I have concentrated my choice on players from my own era. All were a delight to watch for the fluency and range of strokes." He noted they were in no particular order other than Sobers being clearly number one. Pleased to see a lesser known Australian in Peter Burge cracking a mention.

@Coronis Break out the riot gear.

Basil D’Oliveira’s Ten Greatest Battlers
Barry Richards
Geoff Boycott
Graham Gooch
Rohan Kanhai
Viv Richards
Graeme Pollock
Zaheer Abbas
Greg Chappell
Colin Cowdrey
Garfield Sobers

I find the last list quite puzzling. D’Oliveira wrote. “As well as marvellous ability, all of these batsmen were also blessed with great fighting qualities.”
For me, a battler has great fighting qualities while having less than ‘marvellous ability’. I would have Ken Barrington and D’Oliveira himself high on my list.

Tomorrow I’ll add Gower’s Greatest left-handed batsmen, Holding’s Greatest W.I, fast bowlers and Milburn’s Greatest Entertainers.

Yep that list makes no sense to me… I agree with you 100%. It feels very odd to see two lists titled Greatest Strokeplayers and Greatest Battlers have such overlap. The two words don’t generally go together. My opinion of Basil has dropped, despite his affair.

 

[Line and Length]

David Gower’s Ten Greatest Left-Handed Batsmen
Graeme Pollock
Garfield Sobers
Alvin Kallicharran
Clive Lloyd
John Edrich
Roy Fredericks
Allan Border
Larry Gomes
David Hookes
David Lloyd

When I think of great left-handers, I think of Neil Harvey. However, in Gower’s defence, he was nominating players “whom I have at least seen play.” It was also pleasing to see a more international flavor to Gower’s list than some of his countrymen have compiled.

Michael Holding’s Ten Greatest West Indian Fast Bowlers
Wes Hall
Andy Roberts
Roy Gilchrist
Charlie Griffith
Joel Garner
Colin Croft
Keith Boyce
Malcolm Marshall
Vanburn Holder
Uton Dowe

It seems strange seeing a W.I. fast bowler list with no Ambrose and Marshall ranked down the list. As this book was published in 1984, Ambrose hadn’t burst onto the scene and Marshall was early in his illustrious career. Holding, like Gower, only listed players he had seen.

Colin Milburn’s Ten Greatest Entertainers
Garfield Sobers
Viv Richards
Barry Richards
Graeme Pollock
Ted Dexter
Norman O’Neill
Greg Chappell
David Gower
Ian Botham
Rohan Kanhai

Milburn, like Gower and Holding, only lists players he had seen. Milburn himself provided great entertainment with his innings for WA against Queensland at Brisbane when his 243 included 141 runs between lunch and tea.

Tomorrow I’ll give the lists a more international flavor with Ray Lindwall’s greatest fast bowlers (interesting comparison to Trueman’s list), Bob Simpson’s slip catchers and Farokh Engineers greatest ‘keepers.

 

[Line and Length]

Ray Lindwall’s Ten Greatest Fast Bowlers
1 Harold Larwood
2 Dennis Lillee
3 Fred Trueman
4 Keith Miller
5 Wes Hall
6 Michael Holding
7 Frank Tyson
8 Alan Davidson
9 Bill Johnston
10 Jeff Thomson

Lindwall explains his number one selection thus: “I have put Harold Larwood in first place because of the enormous impact he had on the game when I was just a schoolboy. I watched him bowl in the ‘bodyline’ series and never forgot the experience. He also mentions that Richard Hadlee, Brian Statham, Imran Khan and Andy Roberts were all “given careful consideration”.

Bob Simpson’s Ten Greatest Slip Catchers
1 Neil Harvey
2 Greg Chappell
3 Ian Chappell
4 Phil Sharpe
5 Colin Cowdrey
6 Ken Barrington
7 Garfield Sobers
8 Keith Miller
9 Mike Brearley
10 Ian Botham



This makes an interesting comparison to Brearley’s Greatest 10. They both make each others’ list but only Sharpe, G. Chappell and Botham make both lists. Sharpe was one I overlook when discussing slips fielders. The cricketing correspondent Colin Bateman remarked, "Phil Sharpe was possibly unique in that he was selected by England for his exceptional catching ability in the slips." That might be a little unkind as Sharpe averaged 46.2 in 12 Tests.

Farokh Engineer’s Ten Greatest Wicket-Keepers
1 Keith Andrew
2 Alan Knott
3 Bob Taylor
4 Jackie Hendriks
5 Godfrey Evans
6 Wally Grout
7 Don Tallon
8 Gil Langley
9 Wasim Bari
10 Rodney Marsh

Apart from each other, Engineer and Evans have 6 players in common in their lists. The obvious differences are in their choice for number 1 with Evans not including Andrews in his list and Engineer rating Tallon somewhat lower. Engineer wrote, “I juggled short-lists that included players such as Syed Kirmani, John Waite and Alan (A.C.) Smith before arriving at this line-up.” Both Kirmani and Waite made Evans’s list.

To complete our ‘Greatest Ten’ Series, I will add David Sheppard’s Greatest Batsmen, Derek Underwood’s Greatest Left-Arm spin bowlers and Colin Cowdrey’s Greatest Test Grounds.

 

[Coronis]

Ray Lindwall’s Ten Greatest Fast Bowlers
1 Harold Larwood
2 Dennis Lillee
3 Fred Trueman
4 Keith Miller
5 Wes Hall
6 Michael Holding
7 Frank Tyson
8 Alan Davidson
9 Bill Johnston
10 Jeff Thomson

Lindwall explains his number one selection thus: “I have put Harold Larwood in first place because of the enormous impact he had on the game when I was just a schoolboy. I watched him bowl in the ‘bodyline’ series and never forgot the experience. He also mentions that Richard Hadlee, Brian Statham, Imran Khan and Andy Roberts were all “given careful consideration”.

Bob Simpson’s Ten Greatest Slip Catchers
1 Neil Harvey
2 Greg Chappell
3 Ian Chappell
4 Phil Sharpe
5 Colin Cowdrey
6 Ken Barrington
7 Garfield Sobers
8 Keith Miller
9 Mike Brearley
10 Ian Botham



This makes an interesting comparison to Brearley’s Greatest 10. They both make each others’ list but only Sharpe, G. Chappell and Botham make both lists. Sharpe was one I overlook when discussing slips fielders. The cricketing correspondent Colin Bateman remarked, "Phil Sharpe was possibly unique in that he was selected by England for his exceptional catching ability in the slips." That might be a little unkind as Sharpe averaged 46.2 in 12 Tests.

Farokh Engineer’s Ten Greatest Wicket-Keepers
1 Keith Andrew
2 Alan Knott
3 Bob Taylor
4 Jackie Hendriks
5 Godfrey Evans
6 Wally Grout
7 Don Tallon
8 Gil Langley
9 Wasim Bari
10 Rodney Marsh

Apart from each other, Engineer and Evans have 6 players in common in their lists. The obvious differences are in their choice for number 1 with Evans not including Andrews in his list and Engineer rating Tallon somewhat lower. Engineer wrote, “I juggled short-lists that included players such as Syed Kirmani, John Waite and Alan (A.C.) Smith before arriving at this line-up.” Both Kirmani and Waite made Evans’s list.

To complete our ‘Greatest Ten’ Series, I will add David Sheppard’s Greatest Batsmen, Derek Underwood’s Greatest Left-Arm spin bowlers and Colin Cowdrey’s Greatest Test Grounds.

to be fair re: Sharpe he definitely wasn’t being selected based on his domestic batting. Averaged 30 in FC cricket.

 

[Line and Length]

Bishop David Sheppard's Ten Greatest Batsmen
1 Dr W.G. Grace
2 Jack Hobbs
3 Victor Trumper
4 Don Bradman
5 Len Hutton
6 Everton Weekes
7 Peter May
8 Garfield Sobers
9 Viv Richards
10 Greg Chappell

I can't recall seeing Bradman and Sobers listed as low as this. I can only presume that the list is in no particular order or, at best, rough chronological order. The only notes included was a mention that "the most difficult task was deciding which of the 'Three Ws' to choose.

Derek Underwood's Ten Greatest Left-Arm Spin Bowlers
1 Bishen Bedi
2 Tony Lock
3 Norman Gifford
4 Alf Valentine
5 Phil Edmonds
6 Johnny Wardle
7 Don Wilson
8 Garfield Sobers
9 George Tribe
10 Vinoo Mankad

Underwood mentions Hedley Verity's great reputation but says, "I have stuck to bowlers who have been in action in post-war years". Of Sobers he says "Sobers gets in because, although better known for swing bowling, he did start out as a deadly accurate spinner."

Colin Cowdrey's Ten Greatest Test Grounds
Lords, London
Newlands,Capetown
Adelaide Oval, South Australia
Melbourne, Victoria
Sydney, New South Wales
Christchurch, New Zealand
Port-of Spain, Trinidad
Lahore, Pakistan
Eden Gardens, Calcutta
Sabina Park, Jamaica

Cowdrey wrote, "It's cruel tying me down to just ten when I enjoyed my cricket at so many grounds around the world. I could have mentioned Old Trafford, Kingsmead in Durban, Bombay, Bangalore and Salisbury and so many more. One of the most spectacular grounds I played at - although not in Test cricket - was in the beautiful setting of Colombo" He also mentioned, "I have not made my selections in any particular order."

I hope our Indian CW members don't object to me typing the names of Indian cities as they appear in the book instead of using the correct titles of Kolkata, Mumbai and Bengaluru (I hope I have the correct spelling).

That concludes the series of lists from that section of "The Book of Cricket Lists". There are other interesting sections including 'Heroes of the Heroes' where players from the era list their childhood heroes (batting and bowling) and their idea of the perfect batsman/bowler. In the coming days weeks I will open a new thread entitled 'Heroes of the Heroes' and list some of the entries of some of the better known players of the 50+ in that chapter.

I hope you have enjoyed the selected lists I have posted in this thread.

 

[kyear2]

As Stephen A would say, it's fluid. But for at least today and a change up....

ATG XI

Sir Leonard Hutton - Not the greatest opener ever, that goes to Hobbs, but he faced much more modern, better and varied attacks, and in more counties. His s/r? In a team such as this, he's the exception not the rule and he would act as the anchor for the lineup. Of all his accomplishments, his greatest one may have been breaking Bradman's record against O'Reilly with the great man starring him down.

Barry Richards - Likely the highest peer rated opener of all time outside of Hobbs, and like the Master, he combined technical correctness with aggressive scoring unlike any other. He's the perfect compliment to Hutton, the one who will set the tone for the innings and a first rate slip fielder.

Sir Donald Bradman - 99.94. No he didn't play in the toughest or most challenging of eras or against the highest levels of competition, and yes he only played in two countries. But 99.94. His average in bodyline is still higher that that of most batsmen and the levels of concentration and skill required to do what he did would always lead to him being recognized as the GOAT. He would captain the team.

Sir I.V.A. Richards - The master blaster, he was arguably the greatest ever player of fast bowling, and could change the course of a match in a session. He dominated in what was the toughest era for batting, and helmet-less at that. His peak is beaten only by Bradman's and comprised of performances against some of the greatest bowlers of all time, and least we forget, WSC. He was also a brilliant fielder, arguably the best of his era and brilliant at third slip.

Sachin Tendulkar - All the records are his, and will likely never be broken. His longevity, consistency, and well rounded record paired to his technical skills all but assures him of a place in this team. Like Viv he played against some of the greatest fast bowlers of his and any era but also dominated the two greatest spinners of all time.

Sir Garfield Sobers - He was the greatest all round cricketer the game has ever seen. He was a top five, if for me, top three batsman of all time. He was one of the greatest players ever of fast bowling and also dominant vs spin, and did both vs some of the greatest ever. He was easily the most versatile, and the greatest relief bowler of all time, having the quality to at times, open the bowling. He was an ATG in the cordon, manning the critical 2nd slip position, but also a magnificent catcher and fielder everywhere close to the wicket.

Adam Gilchrist - He forever changed his position, and was a cheat code for one of the greatest teams ever. He kept brilliantly to McGrath, but especially and critically to Warne and McGill. He didn't just score, he destroyed teams, and quickly, setting up victories by giving his attack more time to bowl out the opposition. His catching and stumping didn't hurt either.

Imran Khan - No my views on his bowling hasn't changed, and his away record had questions, but he was as far above the other bowling all rounders as Gilly is for keepers. He was a pioneer of reverse swing, that brings an added dimension to the old ball attack. His lower order batting factors in as well, and he was capable of dropping anchor or launching an attack.

Malcolm Marshall - The greatest bowler the game has seen. He possessed express pace, could swing the ball both ways and developed the cutter later in his career. He dominated on pitches rolled out to neutralize him and tested your will and safety in addition to your technique. To quote, he had all the tools and knew when and where to use them. He was also a useful lower order bat, who never matched his potential.

Shane Warne - No he didn't revive nor save leg spin, but he sure as hell perfected it. He paired with McGrath to form possible the greatest and definely the most tenured and productive bowling duo of all time, launching Australia to one of the greatest teams ever. His introduction to the ashes was the stuff of legend and a precursor of his career. He too was a more than useful lower order bat.

Glenn McGrath - He was the best player and spearhead of one of the greatest teams ever. He was his best against the very best, and he faced some of the greatest ever. He possessed unequalled accuracy and subtle seam movement, transitioning from the bowler era of the 90's to the flat era with no drop in quality, utilizing his prevision and bounce to his advantage. He's the perfect compliment for Maco, and with two bowlers from the '80's, one from the modern era is a must, though he probably is regardless.

Sir Leonard Hutton
Barry Richards^
Sir Donald Bradman (c)
Sir I.V.A. Richards^
Sachin Tendulkar
Sir Garfield Sobers^(5)
Adam Gilchrist +
Imran Khan (3)
Malcolm Marshall (1)
Shane Warne (4)
Glenn McGrath (2)

 

[Coronis]

@subshakerz dreams are all coming true

 

[subshakerz]

@subshakerz dreams are all coming true

I am proud of him.

 

[kyear2]

I am proud of him.

Did u read it?

Tbh, none of the 4 candidates entirely fit, all of them have some kind of 'issue", so went (today) with reverse and batting, all the other issues still remain.
Steyn's pros are era and s/r, Hadlee's better bowler and batting, Wasim's variety and peer ratings.

If Barry wasn't already in the team, Procter wouldn't be a horrible call.

But also, the other day when PEWS and I selected two teams, it was Bradman and Imran as the captains. Also, and hope this doesn't offend anyone, an AT team should have more than one person from the SC.

Still a coin flip between the 3, and on another day it will be Steyn... and as I said, still have concerns about his record (and fielding). But concerns exists for all their records, and as someone said, at least I know he would score more.

 

[subshakerz]

Did u read it?

Tbh, none of the 4 candidates entirely fit, all of them have some kind of 'issue", so went (today) with reverse and batting, all the other issues still remain.
Steyn's pros are era and s/r, Hadlee's better bowler and batting, Wasim's variety and peer ratings.

If Barry wasn't already in the team, Procter wouldn't be a horrible call.

But also, the other day when PEWS and I selected two teams, it was Bradman and Imran as the captains. Also, and hope this doesn't offend anyone, an AT team should have more than one person from the SC.

Still a coin flip between the 3, and on another day it will be Steyn... and as I said, still have concerns about his record (and fielding). But concerns exists for all their records, and as someone said, at least I know he would score more.

Yeah but you have definitely budged on his batting value and the suitability of him as a third seamer. I am glad. Don't rain on our parade.

 

[kyear2]

Yeah but you have definitely budged on his batting value and the suitability of him as a third seamer. I am glad. Don't rain on our parade.

As I said, I'm reading and watching everything I can find in Imran, and a couple of early observations.
1. He's rated for his captaincy higher than anything else, even his bowling. And the work tactics is never used. Does that speak to how absolutely bad it was prior? But yeah that's so very much seen as what he was revered for.

2. Inevitably Wasim pops up, and in so many ways he seems he was just rated higher.

3. His peer ratings as a bowler was not that high. Even in his legends of cricket video no one said he was the best. It wasn't even a given / consensus that he was the best all rounder if the era, though Hadlee said he was the most consistent.

4. I've heard 3 different stories of how Wasim was discovered.

 

[subshakerz]

As I said, I'm reading and watching everything I can find in Imran, and a couple of early observations.
1. He's rated for his captaincy higher than anything else, even his bowling. And the work tactics is never used. Does that speak to how absolutely bad it was prior? But yeah that's so very much seen as what he was revered for.

Imran wasn't a bad tactician. But that wasn't his strength. It was unifying the team, disciplining them and inspiring them.

He relied often on Miandad for tactical advice which captain are meant to do anyways, consult with deputies.

But I agree Imran the captain overshadows his other achievements. Even Proctor himself said Imran was underrated.

4. I've heard 3 different stories of how Wasim was discovered.

Wasim wasn't discovered by Imran. Waqar was.

 

[Coronis]

Imran wasn't a bad tactician. But that wasn't his strength. It was unifying the team, disciplining them and inspiring them.

He relied often on Miandad for tactical advice which captain are meant to do anyways, consult with deputies.

But I agree Imran the captain overshadows his other achievements. Even Proctor himself said Imran was underrated.


Wasim wasn't discovered by Imran. Waqar was.

Ooh I’d love to see how Imran would try and discipline Bradman.