Best Attack

[Coronis]

How many wickets would Sobers have taken if he debuted around the time Andy Roberts debuted? Effectively a career overlapping the crop of great West Indian pace bowlers.

Assuming he plays the same amount of tests I’d say 200 or less.

 

[smash84]

How many wickets would Sobers have taken if he debuted around the time Andy Roberts debuted? Effectively a career overlapping the crop of great West Indian pace bowlers.

His batting average might also suffer facing better opposition bowling of the 70s and 80s

 

[reyrey]

How many wickets would Sobers have taken if he debuted around the time Andy Roberts debuted? Effectively a career overlapping the crop of great West Indian pace bowlers.

His pace bowling wouldn't be needed and that wouldn't actually be a bad thing for him. He'd probably end up a better spin bowler as that would become his main bowling focus and as the main/lone spin bowling option in the side he'd still end up with plenty of wickets. I'd say 250, averaging low 30s

 

[ankitj]

His batting average might also suffer facing better opposition bowling of the 70s and 80s

He faced Lindwall, Miller, Davidson from Australia; Trueman, Statham, Snow, Laker from England; Fazal Mahmood from Pakistan ; quality spinners from India. He faced enough quality overall. His case is not like Bradman's.

 

[HouHsiaoHsien]

He faced Lindwall, Miller, Davidson from Australia; Trueman, Statham, Snow, Laker from England; Fazal Mahmood from Pakistan ; quality spinners from India. He faced enough quality overall. His case is not like Bradman's.

Bowling quality in the 70s and 80s was higher overall tho. Sobers only faced Lindwall and Miller in 1954 and didn’t do well. Someone like Richards faced Lillee, Thomson in multiple series, and Imran, Sarfaraz and Qadir from Pak, Hadlee from Eng, Botham and Willis in Eng and in first series Underwood as well, and the quartet, Kapil Dev from India. However specifically for India and England agreed, and Sobers did brilliantly against both.

 

[kyear2]

Bowling quality in the 70s and 80s was higher overall tho. Sobers only faced Lindwall and Miller in 1954 and didn’t do well. Someone like Richards faced Lillee, Thomson in multiple series, and Imran, Sarfaraz and Qadir from Pak, Hadlee from Eng, Botham and Willis in Eng and in first series Underwood as well, and the quartet, Kapil Dev from India. However specifically for India and England agreed, and Sobers did brilliantly against both.

254. He was past his best and took on a young rampaging Lillee at his absolute fastest.

In 55 when he faced Lindwall and Miller at 18 years old, he wasn't nearly the batsman he would become, having batted at 9 just a few months prior, and at least two of those tests he opened the innings to give the team a jump start at the top innings, think he scored 47 his first innings opening.

He also faced Underwood and Benaud during his career.

 

[smash84]

He faced Lindwall, Miller, Davidson from Australia; Trueman, Statham, Snow, Laker from England; Fazal Mahmood from Pakistan ; quality spinners from India. He faced enough quality overall. His case is not like Bradman's.

I thought Miller retired by 1956 or something

 

[smash84]

Bowling quality in the 70s and 80s was higher overall tho. Sobers only faced Lindwall and Miller in 1954 and didn’t do well. Someone like Richards faced Lillee, Thomson in multiple series, and Imran, Sarfaraz and Qadir from Pak, Hadlee from Eng, Botham and Willis in Eng and in first series Underwood as well, and the quartet, Kapil Dev from India. However specifically for India and England agreed, and Sobers did brilliantly against both.

This

 

[HouHsiaoHsien]

254. He was past his best and took on a young rampaging Lillee at his absolute fastest.

In 55 when he faced Lindwall and Miller at 18 years old, he wasn't nearly the batsman he would become, having batted at 9 just a few months prior, and at least two of those tests he opened the innings to give the team a jump start at the top innings, think he scored 47 his first innings opening.

He also faced Underwood and Benaud during his career.

Agreed, but overall I would say someone like Viv faced higher bowling quality overall, better Aus and significantly better Pak attacks in multiple series, the quartet in two series, Botham and Willis from Eng(although Sobers faced a better Eng attack), and Hadlee from NZ.

 

[subshakerz]

Agreed, but overall I would say someone like Viv faced higher bowling quality overall, better Aus and significantly better Pak attacks in multiple series, the quartet in two series, Botham and Willis from Eng(although Sobers faced a better Eng attack), and Hadlee from NZ.

The key difference between Viv and Lara is Lara's weakness against high quality pace.

This wasn't a problem early career for Lara. Someone pointed out he developed this eye issue around the mid 90s. Since then, he had poor series against Donald, 2Ws, Bond and the English quartet.

 

[kyear2]

Agreed, but overall I would say someone like Viv faced higher bowling quality overall, better Aus and significantly better Pak attacks in multiple series, the quartet in two series, Botham and Willis from Eng(although Sobers faced a better Eng attack), and Hadlee from NZ.

But isn't that why IVA is rated as highly as he is, because he has faced and succeeded against better attacks than anyone with only Sachin and Lara and possibly Sobers and Sunny coming close.

 

[kyear2]

This must be the 10th post in a row you haven't addressed the argument of ATG games = lower scoring = lower order runs critical, 5th bowler not so much = bowling ARs more valuable. Instead you dance around it.

What part of that argument is wrong?

All of it.


Two even teams, we have no idea how this will play out, but let's assume for a moment that you're right...

If these are 250 scores, we're assuming that the ATG batsmen are well below their averages and "struggling", yet you want to believe that the savior will be the non ATG batsmen at the tail end of the order.

If the bowlers are blowing through Hutton, Bradman, Tendulkar, Sobers and co, they are bowling through the tail with some ease.

With regards to having a dependable 5th bowler, let's say Warne gets hit of the attack, what happens then? Or the pacers are ineffective? I'm struggling to remember a time when two equal teams faced off and a 5th bowler wasn't engaged.

Again I'll also ask which great teams featured or heavily relied upon bowling all rounders. The great Australian, West Indies, South African teams did pretty decently without one. It's never been a huge factor, and all that coupled with this top order, further reducing their value.

And again, the advantages of Sobers and Kallis doesn't end at just being bowling all rounders, they're also the team's best slip fielders and will be stationed at the most crucial 2nd slip position.

And finally, Sobers is a certainty for the team as a batsman alone, his slip fielding makes him further indispensable, all before the bowling is even considered. No compromise required. It's a plus that he's the most versatile bowler ever and was noted for his economy.

This again being an argument when for the Cricinfo effort Sobers beating out the bowling all rounders 50 - 0, making the Wisden team, is interesting....

 

[subshakerz]

All of it.


Two even teams, we have no idea how this will play out, but let's assume for a moment that you're right...

If these are 250 scores, we're assuming that the ATG batsmen are well below their averages and "struggling", yet you want to believe that the savior will be the non ATG batsmen at the tail end of the order.

So you agree it will be lower scoring then.

Nobody is saying that no.8 will save them but that lower order runs are more useful in such situations. You have to resort to strawmans to distract from that.

The rest of your post is irrelevant to the point.

 

[kyear2]

So you agree it will be lower scoring then.

Nobody is saying that no.8 will save them but that lower order runs are more useful in such situations. You have to resort to strawmans to distract from that.

The rest of your post is irrelevant to the point.

No, and even if they were, wouldn't see it being consistent and subsequently as impactful as you believe.

And yes, everything that doesn't support your point is either a strawman or red herring. So...

 

[Coronis]

I think it will be higher scoring. None of these ATG bowlers had to face batting lineups like this!

 

[subshakerz]

No, and even if they were, wouldn't see it being consistent and subsequently as impactful as you believe.

Dude, stop lying about your own positions. Here is what you said about this before:

I believe definitely low scoring.

Over the history of the game, I believe that great bowling has impacted great batsmen more than the other way round. Especially the faster guys. And hunting in packs like this, seriously believe that these games will be low scoring affairs

I can't believe the lengths you will go to to deny cricket reality.

And yes, everything that doesn't support your point is either a strawman or red herring. So...

No, everything that doesn't address the point is a red herring. Stop bringing in batting ARs and slips when nobody is asking.

 

[Pap Finn Keighl]

Akram, Hadlee, Marshall, Murali

 

[kyear2]

Dude, stop lying about your own positions. Here is what you said about this before:


I can't believe the lengths you will go to to deny cricket reality.


No, everything that doesn't address the point is a red herring. Stop bringing in batting ARs and slips when nobody is asking.

I said in the response above, I don't know. Some will be, some won't be.

Yes, great attacks generally impact batting more, but there's never been batting lineups like this either, no weak spots to exploit.

What I don't think we will see are high scoring draws, but to be honest we've never seen anything like this since possibly WSC. So again, we don't know.

No way Bradman is averaging close to a hundred, but teams not being bowled out for 250 consistently either.

But to the crux of the issue, you believe low scoring highlights the no. 8 for some reason. I've already said that if the ATGs are being blown away, I'm not seeing consistent residence nor contributions from the lower order.

We can agree to disagree.

But a couple quick points

1. I'm allowed to change my mind, opinions evolve, there's a name for people who's don't. Pulling up 1 year old plus posts proves nothing, really doesn't.

2. You speak of cricket reality, I'm asking when in that reality have lower order batting been that great of a feature to great teams or even consistent wins. It's a fail safe for inconsistent lineups and the occasional rescue job in a crisis. The great teams managed to flourish without them.

3. The response I gave was based on the ongoing conversation to where someone mentioned that Sobers was the more valuable player, and someone chimed that wasn't the case, I was responding to both posts.

4. There are at least 4 viable candidates for that 3rd pacer spot in an all time XI. Among them there no right or wrong answer, just personal opinions. Steyn, Hadlee, Imran, Wasim, all are good viable options, just a matter of priority. For me it's just a matter of who complements each other the best and would make the best attack.

I don't rate lower order batting as being quite as critical as some, so Steyn's strike rate, mastery of conventional and reverse swing, aggression and record in India, stands out for me. Hadlee as the the out right best bowler of the group is also worth a though, and even though he didn't master reverse, he was a successful older ball performer, and yes a handy bat.

That doesn't mean the others don't have their merits.

 

[subshakerz]

But to the crux of the issue, you believe low scoring highlights the no. 8 for some reason. I've already said that if the ATGs are being blown away, I'm not seeing consistent residence nor contributions from the lower order.

This is so disingenuous though. Even ATG bats arent going to be consistently scoring in these games. The point as everyone gets is that Imran will be scoring a decent amount more than Steyn regularly, and those runs will be more valuable if scores are averaging 250.

1. I'm allowed to change my mind, opinions evolve, there's a name for people who's don't. Pulling up 1 year old plus posts proves nothing, really doesn't.

So you disavow your previous position, fine. One year aint that long tho. Strikes me like you decided your previous position isn't convenient.

That doesn't mean the others don't have their merits.

Okay, what would be the merits of Imran's batting in an ATG game then? Or does it have no merits?

 

[Coronis]