The ATG Teams General arguing/discussing thread

[subshakerz]

Well I've heard it all now. Hadlee being marked down for lack of experience bowling reverse. The only player I know of that bowled reverse in his era was Imran and he later admitted he used a bottle cap on the ball to do it lol

That's like saying Viv Richards would be a horrible T20 player as he had no experience. ..

Imran admitted to using a bottle cap once in a country game, and he gave that as an exceptional example of 'unfair' tampering of a ball. He never said he was doing that regularly in test matches, despite what some may think.

 

[subshakerz]

Yes, your no. 8 is going to be the one to save the, sorry, this batting line up.

When I first decided to build a squad rather than just a straight 11, I decided that Hadlee would make the squad, because if the batting struggled and McGrath was a liability that Hadlee would be able to come in. Then I realized how ridiculous that was, you batting is struggling so we're going to replace your no 11.

Under this logic, why not switch Gilchrist for Knott in your lineup? I mean it seriously, since Gilly ain't going to save your team at no.7 if the rest fail, so why not go for the better specialist?

 

[capt_Luffy]

Thanks for those trying to get things back on track.

How about we change topic for a while? !!!!

With the World T20 around the corner, how about ATG T20 sides?

This is my NZ combo

Guptill
B McCullum
Conway
Munro
Phillips
Anderson
M Bracewell
Vettori (Santner & Sodhi unlucky)
Southee
Bond
Ferguson

India XI:

Rohit Sharma
Virat Kohli
Suryakumar Yadav
Yuvraj Singh
Suresh Raina
M S Dhoni (wk&c)
Hardik Pandya
Ravindra Jadeja
Bhuvaneshwar Kumar
Kuldeep Yadav
Jasprit Bumrah

 

[capt_Luffy]

Under this logic, why not switch Gilchrist for Knott in your lineup? I mean it seriously, since Gilly ain't going to save your time at no.7 if the rest fail, so why not go for the better specialist?

If we are going with the best specialist, as well go with Godfrey Evans. If Imran is not saving your batting, Knott also probably won't.

 

[centurymaker]

We get caught up with names. We have 8 bowlers to chose from, and you're going to chose the 8th because he could bat? Somehow bowling matters more for your 5th bowler than the 3rd.

With this batting line up, and the desire to take 20 wickets vs a strong team, were going batting first.

You are wrong.

Imran Khan is not "8th" best bowler.

He is more like 5th best bowler.

 

[subshakerz]

If we are going with the best specialist, as well go with Godfrey Evans. If Imran is not saving your batting, Knott also probably won't.

I am just interested to hear @kyear2 reasoning to justify it, since:

- He claims specialist skills trump secondary ones. Well Knott is clear a better keeper than Gilly.

- He claims slip fielding is vitally important. Well, what about the keeper itself? That would be even more important. Gilly would occasionally drop the odd one, not so Knott.

- He claims that batting at no.8 isn't going to save your team if your regular bats fail. Well, this is literally one batting position from Gilly, so why are Gilly's runs so important then?

 

[Bolo.]

Well I've heard it all now. Hadlee being marked down for lack of experience bowling reverse. The only player I know of that bowled reverse in his era was Imran and he later admitted he used a bottle cap on the ball to do it lol

That's like saying Viv Richards would be a horrible T20 player as he had no experience. ..

As has been commented on, he didn't really know how to bowl reverse. And even assuming he learned, he may not be that good at it. See McGrath- as good a bowler as Hadlee, who knew how to bowl reverse, but was tiers below the best at it.

Height of release point, pace, natural length, and how you generate swing (such as flicking the wrist). All this stuff makes a difference, and I wouldn't assume Hadlee would have been that good at bowling it.

 

[subshakerz]

As has been commented on, he didn't really know how to bowl reverse. And even assuming he learned, he may not be that good at it. See McGrath- as good a bowler as Hadlee, who knew how to bowl reverse, but was tiers below the best at it.

Height of release point, pace, natural length, and how you generate swing (such as flicking the wrist). All this stuff makes a difference, and I wouldn't assume Hadlee would have been that good at bowling it.

Yes. I think virtually any ATG pacers could develop the skill but be at varying levels of effectiveness in bowling it. Cummins can bowl reverse decently but frankly Starc with a slingy action is notably better than him at it.

 

[Bolo.]

Yes, your no. 8 is going to be the one to save the, sorry, this batting line up.

When I first decided to build a squad rather than just a straight 11, I decided that Hadlee would make the squad, because if the batting struggled and McGrath was a liability that Hadlee would be able to come in. Then I realized how ridiculous that was, you batting is struggling so we're going to replace your no 11.

I just argued with Capt Luffy for a couple days about chosing Miller for an Australian XI, I can't get how bowling could be the primary concern for you no. 7 batsman, who may hardly get a bowl as the 5th.

But I realised that it wasn't about philosophy, it's just about putting in as many all rounders as possible. So everything's getting weakened with no direct pay off.

We get caught up with names. We have 8 bowlers to chose from, and you're going to chose the 8th because he could bat? Somehow bowling matters more for your 5th bowler than the 3rd.

With this batting line up, and the desire to take 20 wickets vs a strong team, were going batting first.

Convince me he's the best bowling option for everywhere.

Position in batting order is ODI arguments bleeding into tests.

For tests, outside of a couple of things (like ability to eat up balls or accelerate from certain positions), it doesn't matter much who in your batting lineup is capable of scoring runs, just that the lineup can collectively score.

 

[trundler]

Thanks for those trying to get things back on track.

How about we change topic for a while? !!!!

With the World T20 around the corner, how about ATG T20 sides?

This is my NZ combo

Guptill
B McCullum
Conway
Munro
Phillips
Anderson
M Bracewell
Vettori
Southee
Bond
Ferguson

Babar
Rizwan
Hafeez
Umar Akmal
Malik
Shadab
Imad
Afridi
Shaheen
Gul
Tanvir



Waaaaaaaaaay too many bowlers but it's the best side I could cobble together. Shows where our strength has been in the format and how the mediocre the middle order options have been.

 

[Red]

Let’s say it’s a long tour so we have an 18 man squad. I’m gonna go with:

Hutton
Hobbs
Bradman
Tendulkar
V.Richards
Sobers
Gilchrist
Wasim
Warne
Marshall
McGrath

Gavaskar
Lara
Kallis
Knott
Murali
Hadlee
Ambrose

 

[Nintendo]

Let’s say it’s a long tour so we have an 18 man squad. I’m gonna go with:

Hutton
Hobbs
Bradman
Tendulkar
V.Richards
Sobers
Gilchrist
Wasim
Warne
Marshall
McGrath

Gavaskar
Lara
Kallis
Knott
Murali
Hadlee
Ambrose

Is this for a world tour or specific conditions?

 

[Victor Ian]

Wasim bowling 3rd averages 12 and 10 wickets per match. Great call!

 

[kyear2]

Imran admitted to using a bottle cap once in a country game, and he gave that as an exceptional example of 'unfair' tampering of a ball. He never said he was doing that regularly in test matches, despite what some may think.

Literally no one believes that.

Not even you, when you then revert to the, everyone did it argument.

Between the home umpiring and the green light at home, there was an advantage. The reason I still rate him high as **** is because it wouldn't have made a difference to many bowlers and he was skilled as hell.

 

[kyear2]

Under this logic, why not switch Gilchrist for Knott in your lineup? I mean it seriously, since Gilly ain't going to save your team at no.7 if the rest fail, so why not go for the better specialist?

Because Gilchrist handled Warne more than admirably for his entire career, it's literally how he built his legacy. If it were Murali or O'Reilly, Knott for sure.

 

[subshakerz]

Literally no one believes that.

Not even you, when you then revert to the, everyone did it argument.

Between the home umpiring and the green light at home, there was an advantage. The reason I still rate him high as **** is because it wouldn't have made a difference to many bowlers and he was skilled as hell.

Actually I do believe it. Otherwise he wouldn't admit it at all. I believe he did tampering of scratching and lifting in international games. Also worth noting that in his prime when he had neutral umpires at home, specifically against WI in 1986, it didn't affect his success in bowling at all.

 

[kyear2]

If we are going with the best specialist, as well go with Godfrey Evans. If Imran is not saving your batting, Knott also probably won't.

Ahh, but the difference is that the wicketkeeper position is literally an all rounder position, has been for literal decades, and again, read my previous post.

My argument with you was that the balance should be 60 / 40 keeper, you think it should be 70/ 30 batter.

 

[subshakerz]

Because Gilchrist handled Warne more than admirably for his entire career, it's literally how he built his legacy. If it were Murali or O'Reilly, Knott for sure.

What? You think Knott couldn't handle Warne better than Gilly? Don't buy this logic at all.

 

[capt_Luffy]

Because Gilchrist handled Warne more than admirably for his entire career, it's literally how he built his legacy. If it were Murali or O'Reilly, Knott for sure.

Ahh, but the difference is that the wicketkeeper position is literally an all rounder position, has been for literal decades, and again, read my previous post.

My argument with you was that the balance should be 60 / 40 keeper, you think it should be 70/ 30 batter.

Then take Ian Healy. Warne had a much better partnership with him and he never had much praise for Gilchrist. Instead he said he would had preferred Darren Berry to play for Australia.
Also, it wasn't. It only becamea a true allrounder position once Gilchrist stepped in. Before that it was the best keeper plays for years. And on that logic, I don't think any team exists who wouldn't like thier No 8 to be an allrounder.

 

[subshakerz]

Ahh, but the difference is that the wicketkeeper position is literally an all rounder position, has been for literal decades, and again, read my previous post.

My argument with you was that the balance should be 60 / 40 keeper, you think it should be 70/ 30 batter.

This doesn't change the fact that for ARs you have consistently emphasized specialists skills as essential and with no compromise for the sake of secondary skills.

When it comes to his specialisation, arguably no keeper is better than Knott, plus he is a capable bat.

After all that claptrap about slip fielding being essential for ATG sides, when it comes to the keeper itself you are going to punt it for their batting skills. Doesn't make any sense.