The ATG Teams General arguing/discussing thread

[kyear2]

Is that Graeme Smith at the bottom of your top 20 batsmen?

It was between him and Barrington, and actually thought it was the latrer I settled on. But when you look at modern openers since Hutton retired, do we really believe there's only been one great one, or that it's seriously harder to bat at the top.
He played on tougher home conditions than anyone in his era or any other contender since Hobbs and faced possibly the 2nd greatest attack ever on said home pitches. In a group of 19 batsmen there were only 4 openers, and none since Sunny retired. So yes, an aggressive LHO who averaged close to 50 when you consider the opener tax isn't that crazy.

 

[capt_Luffy]

It was between him and Barrington, and actually thought it was the latrer I settled on. But when you look at modern openers since Hutton retired, do we really believe there's only been one great one, or that it's seriously harder to bat at the top.
He played on tougher home conditions than anyone in his era or any other contender since Hobbs and faced possibly the 2nd greatest attack ever on said home pitches. In a group of 19 batsmen there were only 4 openers, and none since Sunny retired. So yes, an aggressive LHO who averaged close to 50 when you consider the opener tax isn't that crazy.

The difference between Smith with Hayden and Sehwag is greatly exaggerated recently. Smith average 34 in home against top tier teams; now that's hard to make up for with solely away record. Noway in hell Smith is closer to Dravid than Dravid is to Ponting.....

 

[OverratedSanity]

It was between him and Barrington, and actually thought it was the latrer I settled on. But when you look at modern openers since Hutton retired, do we really believe there's only been one great one, or that it's seriously harder to bat at the top.
He played on tougher home conditions than anyone in his era or any other contender since Hobbs and faced possibly the 2nd greatest attack ever on said home pitches. In a group of 19 batsmen there were only 4 openers, and none since Sunny retired. So yes, an aggressive LHO who averaged close to 50 when you consider the opener tax isn't that crazy.

You can't just shoehorn in a clearly inferior batsman just because there hasn't been an opener on Gavaskar's level in 70 years. It'd be like putting Ashwin on an equal footing with ATG pacers like Steyn because there's been a dearth of ATG spinners. Smith shouldn't sniff a spot in the top 30 or so.

 

[OverratedSanity]

The difference between Smith with Hayden and Sehwag is greatly exaggerated recently. Smith average 34 in home against top tier teams

It's not even top tier teams. Simply the competent teams. The only non Zim/Bangladesh/WI team he even averages above 40 at home is England. It doesn't make much sense to give him bonus points for his tough conditions when he didn't even do well in said tough conditions.

 

[kyear2]

Steyn, Mcgrath, and the worst of the specialist bats
Vs
Imran, Hadlee, and Miller (or the most suitable other AR).

Are you choosing the former because you think they have better batting, bowling, or both?

Not sure I get the full context of your question, but I'll tell you the premise of the team.

If it's a tour, I start off with the best possible bowling options. If as the tour progresses and the lower order scoring is a liability, then Hadlee would probably replace McGrath.

But as I'm typing that the notion that the batting is struggling so let's upgrade the no. 8 position sounded a bit silly tbh. But Hadlee is a hair behind McGrath and shouldn't be a drop off, but still........

I'm also aware that the main contention is Steyn vs Imran. In the two head to head polls between the two as bowlers, the lowest vote percentage Steyn received was 78%.
Even in a triple poll with them and Ambrose, Imran only received 2 votes, Subs and Silver Silva, and that's with the former relentlessly hammering the hits.
It's clear that one is seen, and not just by me as being the better bowler, especially for a team that has Bradman, Sachin, Hobbs, Sobers and Gilchrist.
Not trying to be inflammatory and that selection hadn't changed since the last one of these I did. The changes were one opener spot because it was obvious from responses and posts since that I over estimate the guy who was previously there. Also expanded the batting and bowling rankings based on the polls we just completed, as I do listen to the opinions of the collective.

I honestly believe it's a decent list and team selected and the 18 man squad wouldn't differ that much from others selected. The one difficult choice was Lara over Smith but it was really close and there's a dearth of left handers in the squad.

Still open to constructive criticism, because the goal is to make them better and I'm not perfect.

 

[kyear2]

You can't just shoehorn in a clearly inferior batsman just because there hasn't been an opener on Gavaskar's level in 70 years. It'd be like putting Ashwin on an equal footing with ATG pacers like Steyn because there's been a dearth of ATG spinners. Smith shouldn't sniff a spot in the top 30 or so.

Believe it or not, the Ashwin argument was also in my head for the last bowling selection for the same reason...

But also, is it that none of the openers are good, or is it just that harder? I also tried to imagine Sunny or even Hobbs or Hutton playing under those home conditions and how they may have performed.

In any event, I did believe I had settled on Barrington, probably just changed it in my head.

We did just vote him no. 30 though, just saying.

Edited to replace Smith with Barrington.

 

[kyear2]

Qadir is probably the bowler most carried by reputation alone. To think Benaud included him in his 3 man shortlist for World XI leg spinner, alongside Warne and O'Reilly; or that Gooch called him better than Warne......

Yeah, and had nothing to do with not wanting to select Murali and subsequently being called biased if not worse.

 

[capt_Luffy]

Believe it or not, the Ashwin argument was also in my head for the last bowling selection for the same reason...

But also, is it that none of the openers are good, or is it just that harder? I also tried to imagine Sunny or even Hobbs or Hutton playing under those home conditions and how they may have performed.

In any event, I did believe I had settled on Barrington, probably just changed it in my head.

We did just vote him no. 30 though, just saying.

Edited to replace Smith with Barrington.

I will close my argument with just the fact that if Smith's home conditions were so poor, then I don't believe there is any justification to place Kallis outside the Top 5, if not best after Don.

 

[kyear2]

The difference between Smith with Hayden and Sehwag is greatly exaggerated recently. Smith average 34 in home against top tier teams; now that's hard to make up for with solely away record. Noway in hell Smith is closer to Dravid than Dravid is to Ponting.....

Honestly don't rate Dravid as high as some, but he does get credit for batting as high as he did over some of the other defensive guys.

The home record argument doesn't sway me because how did Sehwag perform in those conditions and what would his or Hayden's average be of they played half their tests in SA.

As I said though, I removed Smith and will see if I settle on Barrington.

 

[capt_Luffy]

Honestly don't rate Dravid as high as some, but he does get credit for batting as high as he did over some of the other defensive guys.

The home record argument doesn't sway me because how did Sehwag perform in those conditions and what would his or Hayden's average be of they played half their tests in SA.

As I said though, I removed Smith and will see if I settle on Barrington.

Honestly, that's a pretty poor argument. Smith's home conditions were tough, but saying Sehwag or Hayden (who actually averages the same as Smith against non minnows in SA) were far inferior because they didn't adapted to conditions they toured twice or thrice over a player who played his whole career their; is simply really wrong.
To put bluntly, you're somehow giving Smith points for his really poor home record while you should penalize him for it; it's not about rating Dravid higher or lower, but him being closer to Ponting than Smith is almost a statement.

 

[kyear2]

I will close my argument with just the fact that if Smith's home conditions were so poor, then I don't believe there is any justification to place Kallis outside the Top 5, if not best after Don.

I removed Smith, acknowledge I was wrong.

I also believe Kallis is under rated everywhere tbh.

The arguments against him were he batted to slow, didn't bowl enough and slip catching doesn't matter.

I would argue he's better than a couple guys ahead of him, especially the ones who batted at around his same pace. And to be honest he could slot ahead of anyone after the top 8 (and forgive me) except for Ponting .

 

[kyear2]

Honestly, that's a pretty poor argument. Smith's home conditions were tough, but saying Sehwag or Hayden (who actually averages the same as Smith against non minnows in SA) were far inferior because they didn't adapted to conditions they toured twice or thrice over a player who played his whole career their; is simply really wrong.
To put bluntly, you're somehow giving Smith points for his really poor home record while you should penalize him for it; it's not about rating Dravid higher or lower, but him being closer to Ponting than Smith is almost a statement.

As I said, I moved him from the position.

 

[capt_Luffy]

I removed Smith, acknowledge I was wrong.

I also believe Kallis is under rated everywhere tbh.

The arguments against him were he batted to slow, didn't bowl enough and slip catching doesn't matter.

I would argue he's better than a couple guys ahead of him, especially the ones who batted at around his same pace. And to be honest he could slot ahead of anyone after the top 8 (and forgive me) except for Ponting .

Now, this a point where I think his much tougher home conditions should make this in his favour, without too much trouble.

 

[kyear2]

Now, this a point where I think his much tougher home conditions should make this in his favour, without too much trouble.

Well that's just inconsistent, lol.

But yeah, I watched both of them bat too often to place Kallis above him. But I know that's not a popular decision.

 

[capt_Luffy]

Well that's just inconsistent, lol.

But yeah, I wanted both of them bat too often to place Kallis above him. But I know that's not a popular decision.

Yeah, from your point. Among Kallis and Smith only 1 scored consistently at home; only 1 has a higher average than their Aussie counterpart but still only one them gets ranked ahead of the said counterpart. From my point, I still rank Smith ahead of Hayden, with a larger gap than I rate Kallis of Ponting. Ponting>Kallis isn't the point (atleast for now), consistency of the argument is.

 

[centurymaker]

I will close my argument with just the fact that if Smith's home conditions were so poor, then I don't believe there is any justification to place Kallis outside the Top 5, if not best after Don.

Kallis doesn't have a great home record against teams with good pace attacks.

 

[PlayerComparisons]

Kallis doesn't have a great home record against teams with good pace attacks.

Maybe that’s because of the pitches

 

[TheJediBrah]

2000s Team of the Decade : 1) Graeme Smith 2) Matthew Hayden 3) Ricky Ponting (c) 4) Rahul Dravid 5) Jacques Kallis 6) Mahela Jayawardene 7) Adam Gilchrist+ 8) Shaun Pollock 9) Shoaib Akthar 10) Muttiah Muralitharan 11) Glenn McGrath

Jayawardene? really?

Are Tendulkar and Lara not allowed because they were in the 90s?

Hussey, MoYo, Sangakkara are all ahead of Jayawardene IMO. Probably Inzy and KP too.

 

[Coronis]

Jayawardene? really?

Are Tendulkar and Lara not allowed because they were in the 90s?

Hussey, MoYo, Sangakkara are all ahead of Jayawardene IMO. Probably Inzy and KP too.

Yeah Tendulkar and Lara excluded for that reason. Sanga should probably be there he and Chanders are the types of players who are a bit annoying in these decadal ones because they have a better record (and still solid sample size) in a different decade than when they played most of their matches.

 

[Bolo.]

Not sure I get the full context of your question, but I'll tell you the premise of the team.

If it's a tour, I start off with the best possible bowling options. If as the tour progresses and the lower order scoring is a liability, then Hadlee would probably replace McGrath.

But as I'm typing that the notion that the batting is struggling so let's upgrade the no. 8 position sounded a bit silly tbh. But Hadlee is a hair behind McGrath and shouldn't be a drop off, but still........

I'm also aware that the main contention is Steyn vs Imran. In the two head to head polls between the two as bowlers, the lowest vote percentage Steyn received was 78%.
Even in a triple poll with them and Ambrose, Imran only received 2 votes, Subs and Silver Silva, and that's with the former relentlessly hammering the hits.
It's clear that one is seen, and not just by me as being the better bowler, especially for a team that has Bradman, Sachin, Hobbs, Sobers and Gilchrist.
Not trying to be inflammatory and that selection hadn't changed since the last one of these I did. The changes were one opener spot because it was obvious from responses and posts since that I over estimate the guy who was previously there. Also expanded the batting and bowling rankings based on the polls we just completed, as I do listen to the opinions of the collective.

I honestly believe it's a decent list and team selected and the 18 man squad wouldn't differ that much from others selected. The one difficult choice was Lara over Smith but it was really close and there's a dearth of left handers in the squad.

Still open to constructive criticism, because the goal is to make them better and I'm not perfect.

Sir John Hobbs
Barry Richards^
Sir Donald Bradman*
Sir. I. V. A. Richards^
Sachin Tendulkar
Sir Garfield Sobers^(5)
Adam Gilchrist +
Malcolm Marshall (1)
Shane Warne (4)
Dale Steyn (3)
Glenn McGrath (2)

Vs

Sir John Hobbs
Barry Richards^
Sir Donald Bradman*
Sir. I. V. A. Richards/Sachin Tendulkar
Sir Garfield Sobers^
Miller
Adam Gilchrist +
Imran
Hadlee
Malcolm Marshall
Shane Warne

Which team bats better? Which team bowls better?