Sachin Tendulkar vs Malcolm Marshall

[Slifer]

Why first series shouldn’t count ? When he is being compared to a guy who is the youngest player to score overseas century in AUS , SA and ENG ?

I didn't say it didn't count, I said you had to put what Sunil did in perspective. But fine include it, Marshall owned Sunil thereafter home and away in a way Sachin never did vs the great fast bowlers of the 90s over the course of a series. Youngest player to score 100s in a particular country, doesn't negate generally coming up 2nd best when he was older and established vs the Ws, Donald and McWarne.

Subz was arguing til he was blue in the face a while back about Asian fast bowlers getting bonuses for doing well on their own flat wickets but here we have a bowler who excelled in both India and Pakistan and vs good batting lineups. Interesting how all of a sudden none of that counts...

 

[Slifer]

This was Gavaskar’s last first class match vs Marshall in 1987. Marshall got him out in 2nd innings on 0 . So , overall 94 average in last first class match . So , I think if Gavaskar had faced Marshall solo he would aced it . You can’t take on 3 ATG bowlers at once as opener .View attachment 40135

Did you even watch that match? I did. Marshall had Sunil plumb more than once in the first innings on a horribly flat wicket. Marshall eliminated the need for the umpire in the 2nd innings. Oh and guess who won mom for that game: Marshall.

 

[kyear2]

So first series shouldn’t count ? Tendulkar was ranked no.1 at the age of 21 years , but you want me to not count Marshall’s first series ?

Count whatever you wish, but it was during WSC and he was selected after I believe one first class match and being observed it the nets . He wasn't anywhere near test quality.

 

[Slifer]

This was Gavaskar’s last first class match vs Marshall in 1987. Marshall got him out in 2nd innings on 0 . So , overall 94 average in last first class match . So , I think if Gavaskar had faced Marshall solo he would aced it . You can’t take on 3 ATG bowlers at once as opener .View attachment 40135

"In 1987, playing for MCC against The Rest Of The World in the MCC bicentenary celebration game, on a desperately slow, flat, unresponsive Lord's pitch, he raised his game to a level above any other fast bowler - Imran Khan, Richard Hadlee, Kapil Dev, Clive Rice, and Walsh - in the match. Had it been anything but a festival occasion, Sunil Gavaskar would have been given out lbw to Marshall's first legitimate delivery, and it irked the bowler that the great opener was able to go on to make 188. In the second innings, with the game dead, Marshall nonetheless tore in and bowled him without scoring.

Most telling though was the encounter with the Indian batsman Dilip Vengsarkar, for whom Marshall had an antipathy. Going round the wicket, the bowler flogged life, pace and bounce from the pitch, and almost knocked the bat from the batsman's hands as he fended a catch to gully. Show piece match it may have been but this was vengeance chillingly executed. The man was awesome"

 

[Sunil1z]

Did you even watch that match? I did. Marshall had Sunil plumb more than once in the first innings on a horribly flat wicket. Marshall eliminated the need for the umpire in the 2nd innings. Oh and guess who won mom for that game: Marshall.

Now you are saying umpires were biased towards India in neutral venue?
Now that you have brought umpiring excuse , I think Tendulkar would have averaged 60 if he didn’t have Steve Buckner as umpire in any of his Test matches .

 

[OverratedSanity]

We've recently documented key evidence of multiple horrible decisions Tendulkar copped vs Australia in the McWarne era so please stop quoting averages, he'd have averaged 70 with competent umpires.

 

[Sunil1z]

I didn't day it didn't count, I said you had to put what Sunil did in perspective. But fine include it, Marshall owned Sunil thereafter home and away in a way Sachin never did vs the great fast bowlers of the 90s over the course of a series. Youngest player to score 100s in a particular country, doesn't negate generally coming up 2nd best when he was older and established vs the Ws, Donald and McWarne.

Subz was arguing til he was blue in the face a while back about Asian fast bowlers getting bonuses for doing well on their own flat wickets but here we have a bowler who excelled in both India and Pakistan and vs good batting lineups. Interesting how all of a sudden none of that counts...

In which universe is averaging 41 getting owned ? That too against 3 ATG quality pacers . You are overhyping Marshall’s success vs Sunny in 80s . I would easily take a batsman who will average 40 versus an ATG attack .

 

[CricketFan90s]

Sachin struggled at home vs Donald and co as well. And who even mentioned Lara. Focus.

I was trying to compare 2 great batsmen of 90s who had a similar record against South Africa if you say Sachin could not do it then even Lara was unable to do it and he was much worse.

Sachin facing Donald scored 34 runs per innings in 90s and there is also a reason for it, Donald was more comfortable on pitches with low bounce as his bowling action and speed suits those conditions and is not so comfortable on bouncy pitches as you see him struggling to adjust his length in Australia.

Sachin adjusted over the years and did pretty well against Steyn who was more lethal than Donald.

Marshall in 80s had lot of support from other fast bowlers to intimidate the opposition but Sachin was fighting alone.

In 90s Test Cricket only Steve Waugh and Lara were equals to Sachin.

You have to judge a player from Asia based on how well adapted they were to overseas conditions and Sachin did it well compared to many other players.

 

[srbhkshk]

I think in terms of mastery of the craft there is not much to separate them, both among the very best of the best, you can nitpick some stuff here and there for both but it's just nit-picking, no major flaws for either.

The only real differentiation for me is that Sachin's longevity was exceptional (even) among batsman while Marshall's was just (above?) average among bowlers, although tbh even that is a rather minor point because beyond a certain point which Marshall was well clear off, it doesn't matter a whole lot.

 

[Slifer]

I was trying to compare 2 great batsmen of 90s who had a similar record against South Africa if you say Sachin could not do it then even Lara was unable to do it and he was much worse.

Sachin facing Donald scored 34 runs per innings in 90s and there is also a reason for it, Donald was more comfortable on pitches with low bounce as his bowling action and speed suits those conditions and is not so comfortable on bouncy pitches as you see him struggling to adjust his length in Australia.

Sachin adjusted over the years and did pretty well against Steyn who was more lethal than Donald.

Marshall in 80s had lot of support from other fast bowlers to intimidate the opposition but Sachin was fighting alone.

In 90s Test Cricket only Steve Waugh and Lara were equals to Sachin.

You have to judge a player from Asia based on how well adapted they were to overseas conditions and Sachin did it well compared to many other players.

Marshall certainly didn't get the resume he had purely through intimidation and certainly didn't excel in Asia because of it. Yes he had great support but he was A. Head and shoulders above the rest and B there are more than a plethora of tests/series where he didn't have as much support and he still excelled.

And respectfully and for the umpteenth time, I already said and acknowledged that he did well vs Steyn but even those South African attacks were lesser than the ones from the 90s. Steyn/Morkel <Donald/DeVilliers or Pollock.

 

[Slifer]

We've recently documented key evidence of multiple horrible decisions Tendulkar copped vs Australia in the McWarne era so please stop quoting averages, he'd have averaged 70 with competent umpires.

Respectfully, that's not unique to Sachin. Lara's entire final series in Australia was a completely farce regarding umpiring. Consider this fact, most of us older folks remember how messed up home umpiring were in the 80s, yet a certain 5 foot 10 fast bowler went to Pakistan and owned their batsmen on wickets that made Lillee sweat....

 

[Slifer]

Now you are saying umpires were biased towards India in neutral venue?
Now that you have brought umpiring excuse , I think Tendulkar would have averaged 60 if he didn’t have Steve Buckner as umpire in any of his Test matches .

If you can point to where I said that be my guess....

 

[OverratedSanity]

Respectfully, that's not unique to Sachin. Lara's entire final series in Australia was a completely farce regarding umpiring. Consider this fact, most of us older folks remember how messed up home umpiring were in the 80s, yet a certain 5 foot 10 fast bowler went to Pakistan and owned their batsmen on wickets that made Lillee sweat....

Yet Marshall not getting an lbw decision vs Gavaskar is something totally unique and tragic

Smh you guys are all ****ing frauds of the highest order.

 

[subshakerz]

Marshall. There was a stretch where MM took something like 20 plus wickets in 7 straight series. The 8th, a 3 test series in Pakistan he took 16 at 16 on the same wickets Lillee cried over. Impactful series check, great average, sr, wpm and consistency across teams especially in Asia: check. And this inspite of having ridiculous competition for wickets and having to force himself into the WI team.

Sachin has longevity but in terms of being great vs the best he faced, I already showed numerous times how he struggled vs Donald, the Ws and McWarne. He did well vs Steyn that's it. He had an amazing peak but none of that included really hammering any of the great attacks of the 90s over the course of a series.

He didn't struggle against any ATG. He just didn't dominate them though he had good series against most of them. There is a difference.

 

[Sunil1z]

If you can point to where I said that be my guess....

You just said 188 runs was due to plumb lbw not given . What more accusations you can throw?

 

[Slifer]

He didn't struggle against any ATG. He just didn't dominate them though he had good series against most of them. There is a difference.

Define good? Does good = 40+?

 

[Slifer]

You just said 188 runs was due to plumb lbw not given . What more accusations you can throw?

Well don't go by what I said, I literally showed you a quote to back up what actually happened but ok.

Again, rating Sachin above Malcolm is fine and all, I just happen to disagree. Query, you're picking an atg Indian lineup to tour the world who'd more benefit an Indian team to play the world over: Sachin or Malcolm.

 

[Sunil1z]

So we have clearly established that Marshall didn’t trouble any ATG batsmen . Gavaskar averaged 50 vs him , he never bowled to Viv and Greg Chappell . So he just dominated very good players .

 

[Sunil1z]

Well don't go by what I said, I literally showed you a quote to back up what actually happened but ok.

Again, rating Sachin above Malcolm is fine and all, I just happen to disagree. Query, you're picking an atg Indian lineup to tour the world who'd more benefit an Indian team to play the world over: Sachin or Malcolm.

Just 3 days ago I had made a post in Marshall vs Hobbs thread that I would easily trade both Tendulkar and Dravid for Marshall ( I rate Marshall that highly) . But I don’t think Marshall dominated ATG batsmen like McGrath did or he bowled to very few of them .

 

[subshakerz]

Two unshakeable reasons Tendulkar is better than Marshall:

Longevity - Nobody can deny this. Far more impressive to maintain worldclass performance for nearly 20 years and 200 tests than an exceptional short term five year peak like Marshall's.

Opposition quality -Tendulkar was just better tested across conditions and more regularly faced worldclass attacks and opposition and was never owned by them. You can pick out the best bats in Marshall's age but the general strength of lineups was ordinary. McGrath definitely faced better standard batting lineups.