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Why is it viewed as more important

shortpitched713

shortpitched713

International Captain
trundler said:
Haha poor catching being some peripheral factor that largely gets evened out by other things is the dumbest ****ing thing we pretend to be true here. That and bowlers in strong teams not benefitting massively from scoreboard pressure.
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Catching is certainly not peripheral, if we're talking total value of Specialist batsmen, I will always pick the better fielder between the two as the first tiebreaker. (Yet another reason that Miadad is the GOAT Pakistani test batsman, btw).

Still, in most cases, it doesn't serve that helpfully as a tiebreaker, as better batsmen have a tendency to also be better fielders (especially during their athletic prime).
 
shortpitched713

shortpitched713

International Captain
Also think being a competent batting all-rounder, will beat out the value of good fielding as well, generally speaking.

Still, once again not many comparisons there though, as Sobers and Kallis also end up being great slip fielders too.
 
kyear2

kyear2

International Coach
subshakerz said:
Werent you trying to quantify missed catches for runs earlier? Now suddenly it's hard to quantify when its bowlers you prefer to keep downgraded?

Pretty sure you can shave at least 1, maybe 2 points for both Imran and Wasim thanks to slip misses. I can attest I saw Wasim dropped almost once a test on average.
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You do know you're free to do what ever you please.
 
kyear2

kyear2

International Coach
subshakerz said:
Wasim was a tamperer and likely fixer himself so I don't get that point.

And I have yet to see evidence that slip quality in Pakistan improved from Imran's to Wasims time. It is just that in the latter case we have more video recall.
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I've heard Smali say on multiple occasions that the fielding and catching was much better in Imran's era, with the exception of himself of course. He accepted nothing less.
 
kyear2

kyear2

International Coach
trundler said:
Haha poor catching being some peripheral factor that largely gets evened out by other things is the dumbest ****ing thing we pretend to be true here. That and bowlers in strong teams not benefitting massively from scoreboard pressure.
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It all matters, having a strong supporting cast also assists batsmen as well.

Does that mean that we don't compare players at all?

No one had identical circumstances.
 
kyear2

kyear2

International Coach
centurymaker said:
Yeah, Wasim imo is slightly better than both Ambrose and Steyn and possibly also Imran. I'd have him as probably the 4th best pacer of all time. So I often like to include him in my ATG XI.

And it's not a surprise that he gets picked in so many ATG XIs ahead of Hadlee, Steyn, Ambrose, etc. Former cricketers are not stupid
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I honestly don't know, I've always said Wasim for me is the hardest of cricketers to rate.

My issue with him was never his overall numbers, those can be explained. But the ones against the better teams of his era, India, England, Australia... But he killed vs the weaker teams, evenly spread throughout his career as well.

But there has to be a reason why he's one of a handful to make both Wisden's and Cricinfo's all time teams.
 
kyear2

kyear2

International Coach
subshakerz said:
Please tell me why reducing averages is wrong but trading slip catches for runs is right.
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This is like the 4th time that you've tried to adjust averages, SC players for having to bowl at home, slip drops (while still maintaining it doesn't matter), non SC bowlers for having to play in the SC, which was just a back door to adjustment no. 1

Was McGrath, Steyn and Marshall helped by having strong teams and excellent cordons, was Bradman, Sachin and Sobers helped by having flatter conditions at home, and Bradman everywhere, were Steyn, Murali and Hadlee helped by having perfect home conditions? Yes, yes to all. Do we start subtracting and adding numbers to all of them.

Come up with your own formulae in your head and do what the **** you please.

Hadlee and Murali ended up with higher wpm as a result and more 5 and 10 wicket hauls. As usual these side quests are just strawman arguments.

The issue is, are teams helped and made stronger if they have a strong cordon to compliment their bowlers. The answer is undoubtedly yes to anyone who's ever wanted a cricket match in their life.
 
S

subshakerz

Hall of Fame Member
kyear2 said:
This is like the 4th time that you've tried to adjust averages, SC players for having to bowl at home, slip drops (while still maintaining it doesn't matter), non SC bowlers for having to play in the SC, which was just a back door to adjustment no. 1

Was McGrath, Steyn and Marshall helped by having strong teams and excellent cordons, was Bradman, Sachin and Sobers helped by having flatter conditions at home, and Bradman everywhere, were Steyn, Murali and Hadlee helped by having perfect home conditions? Yes, yes to all. Do we start subtracting and adding numbers to all of them.

Come up with your own formulae in your head and do what the **** you please.

Hadlee and Murali ended up with higher wpm as a result and more 5 and 10 wicket hauls. As usual these side quests are just strawman arguments.

The issue is, are teams helped and made stronger if they have a strong cordon to compliment their bowlers. The answer is undoubtedly yes to anyone who's ever wanted a cricket match in their life.
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As usual, you never address an argument.

You started converting slip drops into runs, not me.

Once you open that Pandora box, why can't I use your own equation to find out what Wasim should be averaging?
 
F

Fuller Pilch

Hall of Fame Member
shortpitched713 said:
Catching is certainly not peripheral, if we're talking total value of Specialist batsmen, I will always pick the better fielder between the two as the first tiebreaker. (Yet another reason that Miadad is the GOAT Pakistani test batsman, btw).

Still, in most cases, it doesn't serve that helpfully as a tiebreaker, as better batsmen have a tendency to also be better fielders (especially during their athletic prime).
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Tom Latham is the 2nd best test slip fielder in the world (behind Steve Smith) but there is no way I'd pick him ahead of Mark Richardson (a poor fielder) in a 21st century NZ XI.
 
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