The ATG Teams General arguing/discussing thread

[howitzer]

I know they weren’t the greatest attacks necessarily, but twin tons in two seperate matches in one year is ridiculous, no matter the opposition. 8 50+ scores (and a 49) in 14 innings is pretty crazy for a success rate.

Could probably count it as 13 innings as there was a not out where he didn't really have the chance to get there. Not sure players should really get penalised for those when it comes to innings milestones such as this.

Hobbs had a great success rate in tougher times from the beginning of 1910 up to WW1. 17 50+ scores in 35 innings (including two low score not outs), in a notably low scoring era and in 3 countries which had very different pitch conditions from each other. Bloke was a monster.

 

[Coronis]

Obviously not peak Australia considering their big 3 have just retired, but how does this rank amongst most impressive individual test performances?

Hadlee vs Aus, Brisbane 1985
9/52, 54, 6/71

He also caught the only wicket he didn’t take in the first innings.

Still New Zealand’s only innings victory over Australia.

 

[capt_Luffy]

Obviously not peak Australia considering their big 3 have just retired, but how does this rank amongst most impressive individual test performances?

Hadlee vs Aus, Brisbane 1985
9/52, 54, 6/71

He also caught the only wicket he didn’t take in the first innings.

Still New Zealand’s only innings victory over Australia.

Top 7 imo, among best all-rounder performances, alongside:

Botham: 6/95,50,149*,1/14

Mankad: 72,5/196,184

Steyn: 5/87,76,5/67

Davidson: 5/135,44,6/87,80

Mushtaq: 121,5/28,56,3/69

 

[Victor Ian]

Best ever ****.

When the great all-rounder became a Sir in 1990, after his last of 86 Tests, he received a letter from Sir Don Bradman, containing a welcome to the knights club, and a cartoon. The artwork showed an Aussie fan shouting over a boundary fence: “Hadlee’s a wanker.” The reply: “It’s Sir Wanker to you.’’

 

[Coronis]

Best ever ****.

Based on everything I’ve heard, I’m surprised at the humour.

 

[SeamUp]

Absolutely. Unfortunately for him there seems to be a bit of an erasure of pre isolation SA cricketers amongst the cricket glitterati that only Pollock, Richards, Procter, and to an extent Faulkner, P Pollock(by dit of being part of that family) and Bland's fielding really break through. Dudley Nourse (to an extent his father too), Taylor, Mitchell, Cameron, Vogler, E Rowan, Waite, McGlew, Tayfield, Adcock, Goddard and Barlow all deserve to be mentioned far more frequently than they are.

For sure and I can see why they're doing it. Just think it's going after the wrong people tbh.

Do we mean the general cricketing fundi's, ICC Hall-of-fame selectors or the new CSA board that started with Test Cap 1 in 1992 doing it?

For either, I guess you meaning apartheid regime (1948-94) linked players which of course they weren't of the same thinking as the government but I get what you are saying. It was a world problem too but obviously those idiot fascist nationalists were a product of the time (proper weirdo's). Pity a Jan Smuts was about to die & couldn't take on those Afrikaaner's with a chip on their shoulders from the Boer War still. Obviously the Nationalist Party took it too heights as a minority where all the other problems existed because of a minority coming to the majority in the commonwealth. Sorry about the political and history talk here.

But back to the cricket. Recently came across this article and trying to get the book as I see it was only published in England @fredfertang might know more : https://witness.co.za/archive/2015/02/03/recalling-a-legend-20150430/

Great story. Brian Bassano dubbed Eric Rowan the toughest Springbok so that is what they called the book.

I'm not even sure how many of our current cricket writers know if he existed. I mean its quite pathetic SA cricinfo's correspondent is still Firdose Moonda.

 

[fredfertang]

Clarke took 14 @17 in Pakistan which was his only other proper series. He was pretty much ostracized from the Windies setup not long thereafter due to going to South Africa. Surrey fans will be certain that he was peaking for most of the 80s and I'm sure @fredfertang who is a Lancashire fan would agree with this.

I certainly will - brilliant bowler, and absolutely terrifying

 

[fredfertang]

Do we mean the general cricketing fundi's, ICC Hall-of-fame selectors or the new CSA board that started with Test Cap 1 in 1992 doing it?

For either, I guess you meaning apartheid regime (1948-94) linked players which of course they weren't of the same thinking as the government but I get what you are saying. It was a world problem too but obviously those idiot fascist nationalists were a product of the time (proper weirdo's). Pity a Jan Smuts was about to die & couldn't take on those Afrikaaner's with a chip on their shoulders from the Boer War still. Obviously the Nationalist Party took it too heights as a minority where all the other problems existed because of a minority coming to the majority in the commonwealth. Sorry about the political and history talk here.

But back to the cricket. Recently came across this article and trying to get the book as I see it was only published in England @fredfertang might know more : https://witness.co.za/archive/2015/02/03/recalling-a-legend-20150430/

Great story. Brian Bassano dubbed Eric Rowan the toughest Springbok so that is what they called the book.

I'm not even sure how many of our current cricket writers know if he existed. I mean its quite pathetic SA cricinfo's correspondent is still Firdose Moonda.

View attachment 39968

I thought I'd reviewed this one,but it seems not - I'll have to try and dig out my last computer and see if it's one that slipped through without getting posted - it's an excellent book, and covers brother Athol well too as I recall

 

[bagapath]

I find it funny how a lot of people here show superiority complexes in ATG lists. Don't make it unnecessarily high standards ffs. There have been more than 3000 test cricketers in history, and among those, 2.5–3% are ATGs, roughly 75–80 players are ATGs. It's incredibly simple. Peer ratings: players who define a generation and were "consistently" among the top 10 players of their generation are ATGs. When you check players records, factor in mitigating circumstances and conditions as well, not just contextless stats. And for post-90s players, consider white ball cricket as well, player should be relevant in both tests and ODIS. People here consider kane with inflated stats and mediocre record against top sides both home and away mostly on flat pitches as ATG and instead get triggered when people call someone with more rounded record as ATGs.

Sehwag and G Smith are ATG openers because of their test records alone. Warner is very good in both formats. That doesn't make him a great overall. I am not a fan of mixing up formats.
Malcolm Marshall and Imran Khan were not great ODI bowlers. But they are absolute top 5 purely as test bowlers. Dennis Lillee/ Wasim Akram/ Joel Garner / Glen McGrath/ Allan Donald/ Richard Hadlee were great in both formats. But that doesnt work in comparing them with Marshall and Imran.

 

[SeamUp]

Absolutely. Unfortunately for him there seems to be a bit of an erasure of pre isolation SA cricketers amongst the cricket glitterati that only Pollock, Richards, Procter, and to an extent Faulkner, P Pollock(by dit of being part of that family) and Bland's fielding really break through. Dudley Nourse (to an extent his father too), Taylor, Mitchell, Cameron, Vogler, E Rowan, Waite, McGlew, Tayfield, Adcock, Goddard and Barlow all deserve to be mentioned far more frequently than they are.

Bryden, one of our few good cricket scribes left in SA and right out of the horse's mouth being on the HoF selection panel previously.

 

[CricketFan90s]

Quadrangular Tournament of Champions (ODI Cricket)

1980s Team
1.Gordon Greenidge
2.Desmond Haynes
3.Dean Jones
4.Viv Richards
5.Javed Miandad
6.Imran Khan (c)
7.Kapil Dev
8.Richard Hadlee
9.Jeff Dujon +
10.Abdul Qadir
11.Joel Garner

1990s Team
1.Mark Waugh
2.Sachin Tendulkar
3.Brian Lara
4.Andy Flower +
5.Steve Waugh (c)
6.Michael Bevan
7.Lance Klusener
8.Wasim Akram
9.Shane Warne
10.Saqlain Mushtaq
11.Allan Donald

2000s Team
1.Adam Gilchrist +
2.Matthew Hayden
3.Ricky Ponting (c)
4.Jacques Kallis
5.Michael Clarke
6.Yuvraj Singh
7.Andrew Symonds
8.Shaun Pollock
9.Shane Warne
10.Muttiah Muralitharan
11.Glenn McGrath

2010s Team
1.David Warner
2.Rohit Sharma
3.Virat Kohli
4.AB de Villiers
5.Shakib Al Hasan
6.Ben Stokes
7.MS Dhoni (c)+
8.Rashid Khan
9.Mitchell Starc
10.Trent Boult
11.Lasith Malinga

Which Team is going to lift this Prestigious Championship ?

 

[smash84]

I think the 90s team or the 00s team are the favourites. Likely the 90s team would win it.

Why does Lara's face look like it's been photoshopped and put in the picture?

 

[Prince EWS]

I’ve always thought that anyone who’d make their way into a NZ all time XI is an ATG

It just works

That's a lot of spinners.

 

[Fuller Pilch]

Good sides.

You have Warne in both the 90s and 00s teams but hardly played important ODIs in the 2000s. Put Bond in 00s.

Other changes
Zaheer Abbas for Miandad, Smith for Dujon 80s, Aravinda for S Waugh 90s, Hussey for Clarke 00s, Watson or Flintoff for Kallis 00s, Taylor for Stokes 10s, and Tahir for Rashid Khan 00s

Edited: I originally thought 90s or 00s before thinking about the 80s middle order with Viv, D Jones, and Zaheer. I think the 80s might win it.

 

[TheJediBrah]

Kallis in an ODI ATG team is a joke

 

[SillyCowCorner1]

Leaving out Aravinda is a joke

 

[Fuller Pilch]

I'd be tempted to pick Greg Chappell either as an opener instead of Haynes, or to drop one of Imran or Kapil. As well as averaging 40 in ODIs, G Chappell was a fine ODI bowler.

 

[TheJediBrah]

I'd be tempted to pick Greg Chappell

Not a very kiwi choice

 

[Fuller Pilch]

Not a very kiwi choice

Definitely wouldn't make him captain though!

 

[CricketFan90s]

Reasonable sides.

You have Warne in both the 90s and 00s teams but hardly played important ODIs in the 2000s. Put Bond in 00s.

Other changes
Zaheer Abbas for Miandad, Smith for Dujon 80s, Aravinda for S Waugh 90s, Hussey for Clarke 00s, Watson or Flintoff for Kallis 00s, Taylor for Stokes 10s, and Tahir for Rashid Khan 00s

Edited: I originally thought 90s or 00s before thinking about the 80s middle order with Viv, D Jones, and Zaheer. I think the 80s might win it.

80s Team has no weakness. Zaheer Abbas and Ian Smith are a Good Choice. A player will make only one team.