Which current players are/will be ATGs?

[Sunil1z]

Most of the ATGs he articulated were out of the period of WI greatness. His analysis was so bad it excluded people who contributed to the great period like Lloyd, Holding and Garner

Which player according to you isn’t ATG ?
Sobers , Viv , Lara , Marshall, Ambrose?
All there are tier 1 ATG .

 

[Slifer]

How do you reconcile the statistical improbability that India and the Windies have played nearly the same amount of tests, India has a better W/L record but you ascribe six ATGs to the Windies and two to India.

Do you not see the deep limitations with your minimalist definition

Because in the near future, India may very well add to their atg stocks eg Bumrah as I already stated. My definition is my definition, if you don't like it feel free to come up with your own.

As for comparing WI and India's records, it's only recently that India has surpassed WI, up 'til 2000, WI had the 2nd best W/L record behind Australia (I believe not sure). The players listed encompass that period.

 

[Slifer]

Most of the ATGs he articulated were out of the period of WI greatness. His analysis was so bad it excluded people who contributed to the great period like Lloyd, Holding and Garner

Trust me, you don't know as much about WI as I do. Sobers played in 60s WI when Wi first ascended to the top of the cricketing ranks. Viv, Ambrose, and Lara, played when WI were great, then declined. Headley was the first great player Wi ever produced and his greatness is indisputable.

Lloyd and the rest did contribute to WI ascendancy but that doesn't make them atg players. They are greats for sure.

 

[Slifer]

Which player according to you isn’t ATG ?
Sobers , Viv , Lara , Marshall, Ambrose?
All there are tier 1 ATG .

What he fails to realise is India are going through now, what Wi did in the 60s and 80s ie they are consistently producing class players and class teams. In the near and distant future, India may well add to their atg stocks. Bumrah is pretty much there save for a few more tests, Ashwin is close and India has a few class bowlers and batsmen coming through. Give it some time, and India will likely add more to their atg stock. As of now, for me only Sunny and Sachin are there. Dravid is a great but surely no one would put him in the same tier as say Sachin or Jack Hobbs.

 

[Sunil1z]

What he fails to realise is India are going through now, what Wi did in the 60s and 80s ie they are consistently producing class players and class teams. In the near and distant future, India may well add to their atg stocks. Bumrah is pretty much there save for a few more tests, Ashwin is close and India has a few class bowlers and batsmen coming through. Give it some time, and India will likely add more to their atg stock. As of now, for me only Sunny and Sachin are there. Dravid is a great but surely no one would put him in the same tier as say Sachin or Jack Hobbs.

Lot of our players are/were on the verge of ATG but not there : Ashwin, Kohli, Sehwag, Dravid, Kapil .

 

[Sunil1z]

For Pakistan I would put Younis, Miandad , Inzamam and Waqar in the list of players who were on the verge of being ATG .

 

[number11]

No no no it's not just XI players, it's players who are a sure in or near for their country's XI and on the short list for a World XI.

I'll start with the exceptions and the two that come to mind are Sutcliffe and O'Reilly. Neither are a sure in for their respective country's XI but they would be anywhere else. And neither looks out of place in a ATG XI.

And to illustrate my point better, let's use Eng, Aus and WI.

ATGs (imo):

WI : Viv, Lara, Headley, Sobers, Ambrose, Marshall

Eng: Hobbs, Hutton, Sutcliffe, Hammond,
Barrington (?), Trueman, Barnes, Knott

Aus: Bradman, G Chappell, Smith, Ponting, Lillee, McGrath, O'Reilly, Warne, Gilchrist

That's more than eleven players above but all are imo, atgs. They all are sure ins/nearly surely ins for their native XI and wouldn't look out of place in a world atg XI.

Exactly the same criteria I use. T1 ATGs is a very short list - a few dozen players at best in the history of the game.

 

[PlayerComparisons]

Lot of our players are/were on the verge of ATG but not there : Ashwin, Kohli, Sehwag, Dravid.

Dravid is an ATG but Sehwag is not really close imo

 

[number11]

For Pakistan I would put Younis, Miandad , Inzamam and Waqar in the list of players who were on the verge of being ATG .

All T2 ATGs (Inzi maybe only country great, or VV good but not great). Of those, Waqar is closest to T1 ATG - there is a fair case for him, esp pre-injury.

Most countries have a handful. Pakistan has 2 certified T1 ATGs - Immy and Wasim. Both make an AT WXI for me (esp if we say modern era only, defined as since covered wickets). But with any criteria, they probably make it.

 

[Sunil1z]

Dravid is an ATG but Sehwag is not really close imo

Yes He is . If he had averaged even 40+ in one of SEN country, he would certainly be in argument.
I think this forum allows you to have failure in 2 countries. But 3 is a strict No-No .

 

[Silver Silva]

Walsh only has 405 wickets and meets the criteria overall anyway, doesn't he? Just feels weird to penalize anderson when he's had a peak as long as marshall/ambrose's career that meets the critera.

Anderson's longevity and peak in my opinion is cancelled out by the fact that for a long time he was a good bowler at best.
After 91 Tests his bowling average was in the 30's ..

Any top top SWENA team you would be lucky to even have 91 tests after a decade of averaging 30 as a seamer, you would have been replaced a long time ago with that sort of record , credit to Anderson for never giving up but honestly if I gave Jason Gillespie the same sort of career pathway he too would have 700 test wickets ..

His career also benefited from Test Spam privilege, the sort of privilege that enabled a player like Bairstow to get to 100 Tests , a lucrative central contract where Anderson didn't need to play other formats or county cricket if he didn't feel up to it, and last but certainly not least an underwhelming Ashes record which didn't cost him his place in the national team the way it should have done but for lack of better alternatives.

So yes its a not a usual argument but I feel Anderson owes a lot of his success to being given a chance to develop at Test level in a way that would have been impossible for others who didn't have that privilege.

 

[Slifer]

All T2 ATGs (Inzi maybe only country great, or VV good but not great). Of those, Waqar is closest to T1 ATG - there is a fair case for him, esp pre-injury.

Most countries have a handful. Pakistan has 2 certified T1 ATGs - Immy and Wasim. Both make an AT WXI for me (esp if we say modern era only, defined as since covered wickets). But with any criteria, they probably make it.

Yeah the idea of a tiers amongst greats/atgs makes sense to me.

 

[Nintendo]

Anderson's longevity and peak in my opinion is cancelled out by the fact that for a long time he was a good bowler at best.
After 91 Tests his bowling average was in the 30's ..

Any top top SWENA team you would be lucky to even have 91 tests after a decade of averaging 30 as a seamer, you would have been replaced a long time ago with that sort of record , credit to Anderson for never giving up but honestly if I gave Jason Gillespie the same sort of career pathway he too would have 700 test wickets ..

His career also benefited from Test Spam privilege, the sort of privilege that enabled a player like Bairstow to get to 100 Tests , a lucrative central contract where Anderson didn't need to play other formats or county cricket if he didn't feel up to it, and last but certainly not least an underwhelming Ashes record which didn't cost him his place in the national team the way it should have done but for lack of better alternatives.

So yes its a not a usual argument but I feel Anderson owes a lot of his success to being given a chance to develop at Test level in a way that would have been impossible for others who didn't have that privilege.

Brett lee took 310 wickets @31 playing in the same era Anderson averaged 30 in.

 

[Silver Silva]

Brett lee took 310 wickets @31 playing in the same era Anderson averaged 30 in.

Brett Lee was never the main guy though , wasn't a genuine no.11 and his USP was that he was one of the fastest bowlers to ever walk the earth ,can see why Australia tried to make that a success..when Australia's dominance began to wane in 08 he was moved on and the Johnson era began.

 

[CricAddict]

May I ask what your definition of ATG is?

The top 50 batsmen and bowlers who get voted in L&L's poll are all ATG to me and then some all-rounders and keepers who got missed out.

 

[ataraxia]

Anderson's longevity and peak in my opinion is cancelled out by the fact that for a long time he was a good bowler at best.
After 91 Tests his bowling average was in the 30's ..

Anderson's 9-year, 87-test peak has him at 342 wickets at 21.3. There are many factors that make this significantly less impressive than it actually is, of course, but that's true to some degree for all but the very top 5 or 6 pacers. I don't believe it makes sense that his peak can have its quality be significantly diminished by mediocre performances either side given very few pacers have ATG peaks quite as long as Anderson's.

 

[ma1978]

My point is this restrictive list of ATGs is arbitrary and too small.

 

[ma1978]

Anderson's 9-year, 87-test peak has him at 342 wickets at 21.3. There are many factors that make this significantly less impressive than it actually is, of course, but that's true to some degree for all but the very top 5 or 6 pacers. I don't believe it makes sense that his peak can have its quality be significantly diminished by mediocre performances either side given very few pacers have ATG peaks quite as long as Anderson's.

Agreed. And it’s not like Anderson was not adding meaningful value outside that 97 test peak. I hate the guy but he’s an inner circle ATG, one of the most valuable cricketers to ever have walked on the pitch.

 

[Adders]

and last but certainly not least an underwhelming Ashes record which didn't cost him his place in the national team the way it should have done but for lack of better alternatives.

We let's all be thankful that you weren't an English selector.........dropping Jimmy Anderson ffs!! The rest of your post was bogus but this......this is just bat **** insane nonsense.

 

[kyear2]

Not sure how Donald is in a shortlist for the world XI. He might not even make the 90s XI over Mcgrath, Ambrose, Wasim Akram and Waqar Younis as one of top two pacers. The third pacer of the 90s will be Shaun Pollock for his batting.

But to me, he is still an ATG since I don't define ATG by that way. For Aus, Eng, WI, everyone in the first two teams are ATG to me while Ind, Pak, NZ, SA and SL first XI guys are all ATGs.

That's a serious stretch.
Greenidge, Haynes, Hunte, Fredericks, Lloyd, Roberts, Gibbs, Walsh, Simpson, Hayden, Harvey, all but Hadlee for NZ, all but 5 max for Pakistan, about 4 max for India, 2 for SL. Come on man

This is the ultimate test and stamp of greatness, if everyone is one it means nothing.
40 / 50 upper limit max.