Debate thread for 2024 ranking of bowlers poll

[srbhkshk]

How you are OK with these type of pitches where spinners have 0 role ?
This is not 1 or 2 Test . It is a sample size of 10 years .

Don't even need to limit it to 10 years, here's them numbers since the start of the millenium - but but Ash and Jaddu must pick 10 wickets hauls here for them to prove they are quality bowlers.

 

[Sunil1z]

I mean if you don’t consider Ashwin/ Jadeja ATG , it is perfectly fine .
But how do you expect them to take wkts on absolute green tops where opposition team doesn’t even bother to pick spinners or give them a bowl ?

 

[honestbharani]

TBF, it is just one idiot going on with that diatribe. Its unfortunate that we cant ever have an actual debate with proper reasoning coz that guy pops up every time someone mentions something complimentary about Indian cricket or cricketer(s).

 

[OverratedSanity]

I don't agree that Ashwin/Jadeja are miles ahead of other Indian spinners like kumble/Bedi/Chandra though. The gap between them is minimal regardless of what the averages say imo. Even though the home vs away pitch disparity is far more extreme now than it was before, they all played quite a bit more in away conditions. On a purely statistical level that is going to affect your numbers.

I actually argue this all the time even with an all time great like Sangakkara. He had a very good away record, but because of how big of a proportion of his games were at home (compared to other ATGs) , his overall averages look better. If he averaged exactly the same away from home but played like 15-20 more tests in away conditions, his average would go down despite his actual performance being identical. Proportions matter.

 

[Sunil1z]

I don't agree that Ashwin/Jadeja are miles ahead of other Indian spinners like kumble/Bedi/Chandra though. The gap between them is minimal regardless of what the averages say imo. Even though the home vs away pitch disparity is far more extreme now than it was before, they all played quite a bit more in away conditions. On a purely statistical level that is going to affect your numbers.

I actually argue this all the time even with an all time great like Sangakkara. He had a very good away record, but because of how big of a proportion of his games were at home (compared to other ATGs) , his overall averages look better. If he averaged exactly the same away from home but played like 15-20 more tests in away conditions, his average would go down despite his actual performance being identical. Proportions matter.

Will add one more point .
They also miss out on regularly playing in BAN , SL and PAK which would be their strong points .

IND has played total 7 Tests in SL, BAN and PAK in last 10 years . Whereas we have played 14 Tests in ENG, 12 Tests in AUS , 8 Test in SA , 2 Test in NZ in last 10 years . So , our spinners and batsmen overseas average also takes a hit by playing so less in familiar overseas countries.

 

[honestbharani]

I dont think I would question the ATGness of Ash or Jaddu even in comparison to our previous great spinners. The pitches thing is a bit comme ci comme ca as @Sunil1z has pointed out, the thing that I would say is a big game changer has been DRS.

 

[OverratedSanity]

If we look at the poll results, I think the biggest gap between the CW consensus vs expert opinion may be for someone like Grimmett. He is often rated as OReilly's equal but Statsguru-ing has turned that opinion on its head.

 

[Patience and Accuracy+Gut]

If we look at the poll results, I think the biggest gap between the CW consensus vs expert opinion may be for someone like Grimmett. He is often rated as OReilly's equal but Statsguru-ing has turned that opinion on its head.

Tiger was thought of as clearly better. Grum was rated slightly better than Verity. Tiger was thought of by everyone as a step above. O’Reilly peer rating is actually insane than how much people view. Bradman, Morris, Miller, Barnes, Lindwall all viewed him as the best bowler to ever live. Some compliment, Hutton mentioned about how O’Reilly would be the 1st name in team fighting against Mars. Cardus basically put O’Reilly over Barnes and Hobbs viewed him as equal to Barnes which seems to be the general opinion.

As good as Grum, Lindwall, Trueman etc were, it is as clear as it gets that the 2 best bowlers till 1970s were O’Reilly and Barnes in no order by a good distance.

 

[kyear2]

Both? Although less so for India I guess given our home pace record of recent times.

Because it's easier for pacers to adapt. Which somewhat goes against your argument.

 

[kyear2]

That's fine and nothing wrong with it. But then when you agree those pitches are seam friendly with nothing in them for spinners, why do you judge spinners based on their performances specifically on those pitches instead of spin friendly pitches where they've done well? Bit like asking a fish to climb a tree and failing them for not able to do it.

Because of you're supposed to be a ATG performer you adapt to various conditions. If you're only performing in conditions that favors you then that's the problem there.

 

[Sunil1z]

Because it's easier for pacers to adapt. Which somewhat goes against your argument.

Nah , pacer can also be neutralised if a team wants . But the problem is ICC sanctions those pitches while they have no problem with absolute green tops .

 

[honestbharani]

The paceocracy has reached ridiculous levels in recent times.

 

[trundler]

Definitely think we've to a point where we're underrating how vital batsmen and spinners are. I understand giving fast bowlers a 10% bump in importance compared to other roles but 2 key things that make a team good are scoreboard pressure and just having someone occupy an end restlessly.

 

[kyear2]

“historic” NZ just had pitches where 3 spinners took 5fers including a debutant so this narrative of them only being able to produce seam pitches is false, likewise SA had pitches that ragged for miles against Bangladesh where they beat them at their own game, these ones just dont appear when India seem to tour funnily enough

if you’re talking about India in your 2 countries that force you to play 3 spinners then you’re delusional, Bumrah took wickets for fun in the most recent series and Ishant and Shami and Umesh have all been awesome in India

but what else can you expect from someone who eulogises the 80s and thinks cricket has regressed now because he doesnt watch them

This has been a repeated attack of yours, so I'll address it.

No one has ever said the standard of cricket has regressed, this is purely in your head.

I have said repeatedly that I don't believe this is a bowling era. There's been so standout performances, I think Bumrah is special, Cummins, Rabada etc. But because of the focus of T20 cricket, it's seeped into test cricket. The top tier guys are still doing well, though each of them have their issues as well and Smith in particular has either been impacted by the pitches or just his natural decline.
I wouldn't say the game has regressed, there's still room performers with bat, ball and in the field.

I'm not even going to dignify the comments on the eulogizing of the 80's, believe what you wish.

 

[Sunil1z]

Bumrah , Cummins and Rabada aren’t the only standout performers
Anderson, Broad , Woakes , Ashwin , Jadeja, Shami , Starc , Hazlewood, Lyon , Boult, Wagner , Henry (recent series) , WI bowlers at home , Shaheen Shah Afridi all have made the life of batsmen extremely miserable

Combine them with spicy pitches produced in last 6 years , batsmen are struggling to average even 40 overseas .

 

[ma1978]

Tiger was thought of as clearly better. Grum was rated slightly better than Verity. Tiger was thought of by everyone as a step above. O’Reilly peer rating is actually insane than how much people view. Bradman, Morris, Miller, Barnes, Lindwall all viewed him as the best bowler to ever live. Some compliment, Hutton mentioned about how O’Reilly would be the 1st name in team fighting against Mars. Cardus basically put O’Reilly over Barnes and Hobbs viewed him as equal to Barnes which seems to be the general opinion.

As good as Grum, Lindwall, Trueman etc were, it is as clear as it gets that the 2 best bowlers till 1970s were O’Reilly and Barnes in no order by a good distance.

no one and I mean no one thoughtO’Reilly was better than Trueman

 

[Coronis]

no one and I mean no one thoughtO’Reilly was better than Trueman

sauce please

 

[kyear2]

The paceocracy has reached ridiculous levels in recent times.

No, Murali was just voted the 4th best bowler of all time with Warne right behind. I personally have both behind Steyn, but no one else.

But those two proves themselves everywhere, well more places.

 

[Socerer 01]

This has been a repeated attack of yours, so I'll address it.

No one has ever said the standard of cricket has regressed, this is purely in your head.

I have said repeatedly that I don't believe this is a bowling era. There's been so standout performances, I think Bumrah is special, Cummins, Rabada etc. But because of the focus of T20 cricket, it's seeped into test cricket. The top tier guys are still doing well, though each of them have their issues as well and Smith in particular has either been impacted by the pitches or just his natural decline.
I wouldn't say the game has regressed, there's still room performers with bat, ball and in the field.

I'm not even going to dignify the comments on the eulogizing of the 80's, believe what you wish.

you have dudes like Thakur, Ngidi and Hasan Ali averaging in the 20s but sure buddy, its not an era where pitches have been bowler friendly or spicy

yeah t20 cricket has killed muh test cricket batting rears its head again, next we’ll have the argument of “if those **** bowlers can average in the 20s, then the batsmen they’re bowling to are **** too” and then the circular logic of **** batting and bowling in modern day cricket begins

 

[kyear2]

Definitely think we've to a point where we're underrating how vital batsmen and spinners are. I understand giving fast bowlers a 10% bump in importance compared to other roles but 2 key things that make a team good are scoreboard pressure and just having someone occupy an end restlessly.

I agree with you, it's not like the QB in football, more of a slight bump, tie breaker.

Batsmen are half the equation and are incredibly vital as well. Same way you can't win without taking 20 wickets, if you keep collapsing you'll also lose.

My issue with the Wisden top 5 and other lists are that the pacers are a little ignored, which is even worse because of how vital they are.
Spinner have their role, but even the great Shane Warne was no. 2 for Australia, and if they were only allowed to keep one of him and Pidgeon, it wouldn't be close IMHO.