Debate thread for 2024 ranking of bowlers poll

[ma1978]

The stats show Jadeja is definitely above any Indian spinner, not named Ashwin. But the eye test clearly says otherwise. It’s odd .

 

[Sunil1z]

And? Isn't that the point of playing away? You can absolutely use the same argument that India are preparing pitches suit for Ashwin/Jadeja or at least against the general batting skills of players from Australia and England - the most common tourists.

Also I'm not sure that NZ really know what pitches are being prepared for them given the selectorial ineptitude shown in the recent Australia series.

No , this isn’t the same thing .
Look at record of Indian pacers in matches involving NZ/SA in IND

Absolute pitch doctoring by NZ/SA against IND in last 10 years

 

[TheJediBrah]

The stats show Jadeja is definitely above any Indian spinner, not named Ashwin. But the eye test clearly says otherwise. It’s odd .

It's because he's a no frills, effective finger spinner. He doesn't have to do anything special like mystery balls or huge drift and turn to be effective, especially in India

 

[capt_Luffy]

View attachment 39797
But Shouldn’t Lyon out bowl him on these dustbowls ?

Same for Ashwin and Lyon ( when both played )

Not really if you aren't Subs. In India, Jadeja is head and shoulders above Lyon. But considering the types of pitches they have built there careers on and longevity, Lyon is better in my book; as are Kumble, Underwood, Chandra, Bedi, Benaud, Herath, Gupte and Saqlain.

 

[capt_Luffy]

Yes. The interesting exercise which Sunilz has mentioned above is something that I have done myself quite sometime back. And not just with Lyon, with all the other spinners who've played with him in the same tests, It's very rare that he gets a spin conducive pitch away due to which the record of other spinners in the tests with him is all bad. Jadeja comes out on top comfortably compared to them all, home or away, which is one big reason why I think he is underrated as a bowler compared to others.

But there is no hiding the fact that his away record taken without considering other factors is not great. So, it's fine if others vote him down for that.

That's fair. I personally don't have him in my Top 5 Indian spinners, but if you rate him so highly for his home record, I won't complain anymore.

 

[Line and Length]

I was hoping we might avoid discussion on current voting but rather comment on results.

 

[Coronis]

I was hoping we might avoid discussion on current voting but rather comment on results.

Hope springs eternal

 

[capt_Luffy]

I was hoping we might avoid discussion on current voting but rather comment on results.

I am sorry for bringing up that topic. I just wanted the votes to be fair and not a meme. But as stated by CA and Xix, they voted genuinely so I won't say anything on this matter.

 

[srbhkshk]

I will have to say that Ashwin has a bigger head than Jadeja and Lyon a shinier one. As far as getting batsman out is concerned though Jadeja is as good as either of them.

 

[Socerer 01]

random tidbits about Jadeja

- better SENA record than Ashwin, despite not being regarded the 1st choice there for most of his career with better avg and economy and same strike rate with only 7 innings and 220 overs less

- Santner is the only spinner who has a better economy in SENA conditions beating him by 0.06 and he’s been largely used as an economical, holding spinner by India away

- has the slightest of edges on Ashwin when they’ve played together in all matches; Ashwin’s the better strike bowler but Jadeja is superior economically and has a marginally better average. this is the case when you include countries that aided spin where they’ve done well and the gap widens slightly more when considering only India

- story’s different when you include all matches played , Ashwin gets back here overall and in spin friendly countries. however Jadeja’s got the slightly better record in India still

- this is a lot of checklisting so from what ive seen of the duo, Jadeja’s had matches and series where he has outbowled Ashwin at home, these have happened on flatbeds too most famously in 2016 England series so its not a case of Jadeja thriving only when the pitches rag. would still consider Ashwin as the better bowler but as ive said before the gap is not as big as many imagine due to Jadeja’s lack of flair with the ball

 

[kyear2]

No , this isn’t the same thing .
Look at record of Indian pacers in matches involving NZ/SA in INDView attachment 39799

Absolute pitch doctoring by NZ/SA against IND in last 10 years

So serious question, what's pitch doctoring? One, like 70% of all pitches where fast bowlers are effective or the one and only country where the opposition had to play 3 spinners?

Ever since covered pitches were the norm, the world game gravitated towards fast bowling. Every nation had a pitch or two that took spin or was flat but only one country, possibly 2 that went against that trend.
So which is doctoring?
South Africa and New Zealand have always been known for seam friendly pitches. NZ historically and SA since re-induction.

 

[Xix2565]

Both? Although less so for India I guess given our home pace record of recent times.

 

[CricAddict]

So serious question, what's pitch doctoring? One, like 70% of all pitches where fast bowlers are effective or the one and only country where the opposition had to play 3 spinners?

Ever since covered pitches were the norm, the world game gravitated towards fast bowling. Every nation had a pitch or two that took spin or was flat but only one country, possibly 2 that went against that trend.
So which is doctoring?
South Africa and New Zealand have always been known for seam friendly pitches. NZ historically and SA since re-induction.

That's fine and nothing wrong with it. But then when you agree those pitches are seam friendly with nothing in them for spinners, why do you judge spinners based on their performances specifically on those pitches instead of spin friendly pitches where they've done well? Bit like asking a fish to climb a tree and failing them for not able to do it.

 

[Sunil1z]

So serious question, what's pitch doctoring? One, like 70% of all pitches where fast bowlers are effective or the one and only country where the opposition had to play 3 spinners?

Ever since covered pitches were the norm, the world game gravitated towards fast bowling. Every nation had a pitch or two that took spin or was flat but only one country, possibly 2 that went against that trend.
So which is doctoring?
South Africa and New Zealand have always been known for seam friendly pitches. NZ historically and SA since re-induction.

There is nothing wrong with producing seam friendly pitches . Both AUS and ENG also do it . But don’t produce pitches where your spinners don’t pick a single wicket in 10 years

Similarly SA produced pitches where Maharaj averages 122 against IND


How you are OK with these type of pitches where spinners have 0 role ?
This is not 1 or 2 Test . It is a sample size of 10 years .

 

[Socerer 01]

So serious question, what's pitch doctoring? One, like 70% of all pitches where fast bowlers are effective or the one and only country where the opposition had to play 3 spinners?

Ever since covered pitches were the norm, the world game gravitated towards fast bowling. Every nation had a pitch or two that took spin or was flat but only one country, possibly 2 that went against that trend.
So which is doctoring?
South Africa and New Zealand have always been known for seam friendly pitches. NZ historically and SA since re-induction.

“historic” NZ just had pitches where 3 spinners took 5fers including a debutant so this narrative of them only being able to produce seam pitches is false, likewise SA had pitches that ragged for miles against Bangladesh where they beat them at their own game, these ones just dont appear when India seem to tour funnily enough

if you’re talking about India in your 2 countries that force you to play 3 spinners then you’re delusional, Bumrah took wickets for fun in the most recent series and Ishant and Shami and Umesh have all been awesome in India

but what else can you expect from someone who eulogises the 80s and thinks cricket has regressed now because he doesnt watch them

 

[OverratedSanity]

There is nothing wrong with producing seam friendly pitches . Both AUS and ENG also do it . But don’t produce pitches where your spinners don’t pick a single wicket in 10 years View attachment 39801

Similarly SA produced pitches where Maharaj averages 122 against IND
View attachment 39802

How you are OK with these type of pitches where spinners have 0 role ?
This is not 1 or 2 Test . It is a sample size of 10 years .

Damn, those numbers holy ****

 

[Socerer 01]

There is nothing wrong with producing seam friendly pitches . Both AUS and ENG also do it . But don’t produce pitches where your spinners don’t pick a single wicket in 10 years View attachment 39801

Similarly SA produced pitches where Maharaj averages 122 against IND
View attachment 39802

How you are OK with these type of pitches where spinners have 0 role ?
This is not 1 or 2 Test . It is a sample size of 10 years .

cant expect anything else from someone who thinks the best times were when 4 quicks would run in and demolish batsmen who probably never faced that level of bowling elsewhere

 

[honestbharani]

@Sunil1z laying the smacketh down here. Niiice.

 

[Socerer 01]

Damn, those numbers holy ****

are u even surprised?

 

[OverratedSanity]

are u even surprised?

Not particularly.

Part of it is undoubtedly because they bowl India out with their quick bowlers before the pitch can actually aid spin. Which is kinda the point tbf, they produce these pitches to aid seam to a pretty extreme degree.

But yeah, these stats were already posted before where it showed a big difference between the performance of SENA spinners vs Asian teams compared to their performance vs other countries. Definitely kinda damning because Maharaj is actually a quality spinner, so the "SA spinners are all ****e" thing can't apply here.