Do SC Pacers Deserve More Credit For Home Performances?

[Slifer]

We should use the same logic and start treating Lara as 47 overseas batsman

Yes because that's literally what he averaged.

 

[HouHsiaoHsien]

Sure Lyon can't compete with Ashwin and Jadeja in India but he did pretty well in his own right.

But it's just a reductive argument to say bowlers adapt wherever they are, of course conditions make it easier or not.

Agree with the second part, tho further context is better for a more detailed assessment

 

[Sunil1z]

Yes because that's literally what he averaged.

Then he shouldn’t be rated in top 15 batsmen.
It is a mistake people rate him higher then Gavaskar, Kallis and Dravid .

 

[subshakerz]

The trend I'm getting is that cricketers develop different skill sets based on where they grow up and the conditions in which they play. if they grow up where decks are flat they will try to take the pitches out of the game by learning to swing it prodigiously; if they grow up on faster, bouncier decks they'll hit the towel and look for subtle movement off the seam and try to hit the splice of the bat; if they're in swing friendly conditions like England they'll produce mediocre medium pacers who just present the seam upright and let the clouds do the work. If they grow up on dust bowls, then worst of all they'll become finger spinners.

Doesn't make all conditions objectively as easy to develop skills in.

Your margin for error is far more in certain conditions than others. It will definitely result in a few points average difference here or there. That's all we are claiming.

 

[Daemon]

I always knew Lyon’s average in Australia was nothing special.

 

[Burgey]

To some up their argument: 'Unless you succeed in these away tests on easier pitches, you succeeding for half your career on more difficult pitches is meaningless'.

An utterly bizarre take.

I don't think people are saying that though. I think they're saying that those bowlers are credited for bowling a lot on those pitches, but the extent to which that is taken into account is ameliorated to an extent by the fact they grew up playing on them so know them backwards and developed the skills to prosper on them

 

[PlayerComparisons]

If we’re assuming that all great players would just adapt to tougher conditions, then I guess Ashwin is as good as Warne since he’d just find a way to average 25 if played for Aus

 

[Burgey]

Then he shouldn’t be rated in top 15 batsmen.
It is a mistake people rate him higher then Gavaskar, Kallis and Dravid .

It's a mistake people rate Gavaskar as highly as they do tbh.

 

[OverratedSanity]

It's a mistake people rate Gavaskar as highly as they do tbh.

Had the good grace to average more away than at home

 

[Burgey]

If we’re assuming that all great players would just adapt to tougher conditions, then I guess Ashwin is as good as Warne since he’d just find a way to average 25 if played for Aus

But conditions don't come as tough if you're born and bred to them. Isn't that the point? He'd probably bowl with more over spin to make the most of the pitches here for example, like Lyon does. Just as Lyon, if the poor bugger had the misfortune to have grown up in India, would have learned to bowl with more side spin. I didn't think these were difficult concepts but apparently I was mistaken.

 

[Bolo.]

Your entire framing makes it sound like Pak pacers were destined to succeed there and pitches for a non-factor. Devalues their home achievements IMO given the difficulty of physical conditions regardless of how they did away which is another debate.

Pitches were good for reverse. The Pak pacers who succeeded bowled reverse. Like every other country, if you are quality and bowling in conditions that suit, you kinda are destined to succeed.

Away records are a way to judge quality of a player that we can use as a way of putting home records in perspective. If someone says Ntini's success at home had nothing to do with home pitches, are you not gonna point out how bad he was away as a response?

 

[Sunil1z]

It's a mistake people rate Gavaskar as highly as they do tbh.

He wasn’t a coward like Border whose average is inflated by not outs .

 

[HouHsiaoHsien]

Is it really absurd to say on face value, Kapil isn't a 29 average bowler but moreso should be looked at as 27-28?

No. His style of bowling was more suited to SC rather than Eng or NZ. That’s why context is important. Just because someone succeeds in conditions perceived as tough and fail in the easier doesn’t mean they are better than opposite.

 

[OverratedSanity]

Yes because that's literally what he averaged.

Is Kallis a significantly better batsman than Lara then according to you since surface level average is all that matters.

 

[PlayerComparisons]

If we’re assuming that all great players would just adapt to tougher conditions, then I guess Ashwin is as good as Warne since he’d just find a way to average 25 if played for Aus

Or Murali is significantly better than Warne since Murali would just adapt and find a way to average 22 if he played for Aus

 

[Slifer]

To some up their argument: 'Unless you succeed in these away tests on easier pitches, you succeeding for half your career on more difficult pitches is meaningless'.

An utterly bizarre take.

Bro stop it, nobody said it's meaningless. But nobody is lowering anyone's average by 1-2 points because of a myriad of factors already mentioned. I already showed that foreign fast bowlers have had success in Asia as well.

I distinctly recall you harping on how Steve Smith is overrated because he feasts on roads at home. So should we lower averages for Cummins, Haze etc for succeeding for half their career on those roads?

 

[PlayerComparisons]

Bro stop it, nobody said it's meaningless. But nobody is lowering anyone's average by 1-2 points because of a myriad of factors already mentioned. I already showed that foreign fast bowlers have had success in Asia as well.

I distinctly recall you harping on how Steve Smith is overrated because he feasts on roads at home. So should we lower averages for Cummins, Haze etc for succeeding for half their career on those roads?

Probably yea

 

[OverratedSanity]

So should we lower averages for Cummins, Haze etc for succeeding for half their career on those roads?

Yes!

 

[subshakerz]

I don't think people are saying that though. I think they're saying that those bowlers are credited for bowling a lot on those pitches, but the extent to which that is taken into account is ameliorated to an extent by the fact they grew up playing on them so know them backwards and developed the skills to prosper on them

I guess we are saying that them developing the skills to prosper there is exactly why they should be rated ahead of a pacer averaging the same in England or SA, assuming we are just evaluating those home aspects of their careers. It takes a bit extra to hone those skills.

 

[PlayerComparisons]

Smith averages 49 after my average adjustments