Do SC Pacers Deserve More Credit For Home Performances?

[Slifer]

Ok as long as you are consistent and never give batsmen or bowlers any credit for playing conditions ever.

Dude I'm human so I'm biased like you and everyone else.....

 

[Bolo.]

Waqar is a very specific example. But yeah, give Waqar Australia or South Africa over the course of a home career and whatever tradeoffs he would make for toning down his reverse he gains with conventional swing and bounce IMO.

But even if we don't accept that counterfactual, the fact still remains that Waqar succeeding in the SC required a level of skill of adapting that you wouldn't need for SENAW bowlers to achieve those level of figures outside of SC.

You are wrong about Aus. It rewards tall seam bowlers. Rsa... Debatable- it's good to all styles. Extremely hypothetical though- there were a few RSA quicks who were as good/better away, none of whom match his home performances (last few years of pitch insanity aside).

It's not really adapation if you are from a country is it? The fact that it's a more specific skill does make it more impressive though. There's also the fact that with the exception of reverse in Pakistan, if you have the skillset to succeed in a country (as home bowlers typically should) conditions will typically be kinder to bowlers outside Asia.

 

[subshakerz]

English and SA conditions are different. SC conditions are somewhat similar, in being tough for pace. When you are taking Imran and Wasim’s case you are saying they were great in SC, not only Pak. So not doing well in India is going to impact. That’s why someone like Marshall is the best ever in SC

No, I am saying home first and foremost because that is the largest portion of their career.

 

[HouHsiaoHsien]

Again, back to the point. Failing in swinging conditions is already penalised by default. It is success at home that isn't given more credit.

So Kapil loses points in England but gains virtually none for what he has done in India where he is treated the same level as an average English seamer.

The point is if a pacer does well in a certain set of conditions understood to be harder and loses out on easier conditions, that does raise suspicion on the matter whether he should be given extra points for doing well where it’s harder. Maybe his bowling style is suited to that

 

[HouHsiaoHsien]

No, I am saying home first and foremost because that is the largest portion of their career.

Ok, but atleast agree you need some context. In the Steyn argument it doesn’t make sense cause Steyn was already a god of reverse swing.

 

[Slifer]

...then you obviously have to consider the strength of the batting lineups. I'd much rather bowl to the current WI batting lineup anywhere in Asia than Australia in England with heavy cloud cover...

 

[subshakerz]

lol. Yet Kapil sucks in England and Botham was quality in both. Clearly one actually has the extra skill to do well in both.

And even Steyn for performing against ATG lineups(in those conditions) in India(despite not being that good in SL).

The point in both these cases is not that foreign pacers aren't given credit for SC success. They are.

But that the challenge of SC pacers having a huge part of their home career in challenging home conditions is not properly accounted for in assessing them as bowlers.

 

[HouHsiaoHsien]

...then you obviously have to consider the strength of the batting lineups. I'd much rather bowl to the current WI batting lineup anywhere in Asia than Australia in England with heavy cloud cover...

Yes that’s point. One can’t generalise for all cases. Further context is required

 

[HouHsiaoHsien]

The point in both these cases is not that foreign pacers aren't given credit for SC success. They are.

But that the challenge of SC pacers having a huge part of their home career in challenging home conditions is not properly accounted for in assessing them as bowlers.

It should be after looking at some more contextZ so I am in partial agreement with you

 

[Slifer]

Yes that’s point. One can’t generalise for all cases. Further context is required

I kinda feel like Subz knows all this but he's salty as usual about Imran somehow. What I'd like to know is what's the point? Every single bowler has some country somewhere, where they were less than stellar.

 

[subshakerz]

Ok, but atleast agree you need some context. In the Steyn argument it doesn’t make sense cause Steyn was already a god of reverse swing.

Yeah but Steyn Imran can be looked at as analogous to the Sanga Kallis debate where Kallis' more difficult home conditions became a point in his favor. I don't see this argument ever being used effectively for SC pacers though, instead it's like 'well, they adapted'.

 

[subshakerz]

The point is if a pacer does well in a certain set of conditions understood to be harder and loses out on easier conditions, that does raise suspicion on the matter whether he should be given extra points for doing well where it’s harder. Maybe his bowling style is suited to that

Our point is that conditions have to be disentangled. Home SC achievements for pacers because it is a big portion of a career stand on their own merits and shouldn't be downplayed because of a bad England tour.

 

[ankitj]

And even Steyn for performing against ATG lineups(in those conditions) in India(despite not being that good in SL).

Yes. Steyn and McGrath get a lot of credit for their superb subcontinent record. It's why they edge out Lillee in polls on this forum.

 

[Coronis]

Yeah but Steyn Imran can be looked at as analogous to the Sanga Kallis debate where Kallis' more difficult home conditions became a point in his favor. I don't see this argument ever being used effectively for SC pacers though, instead it's like 'well, they adapted'.

Maybe because Kallis was the only one to have such success,

 

[Slifer]

The point in both these cases is not that foreign pacers aren't given credit for SC success. They are.

But that the challenge of SC pacers having a huge part of their home career in challenging home conditions is not properly accounted for in assessing them as bowlers.

I'd like to know who these bowlers are you speak of. Imran and Wasim are both rated in the top 10 pacers of all time. What more do you want than that?

Using random non Asian bowlers, McGrath for me at least, gets extra credit for doing well in a high run scoring era, the guy kept two atg batsmen in check (Sachin and Lara) and was the spearhead of arguably the goat team. Plus he played at a time when other similar greats had retired, so he stood out more. Then you have a Walsh who was peerless in Asia but sucked azz in more favorable conditions in Australia. Nobody gives him credit for doing well in Asia. So it's not always the case that we big up none Asian players who do well in the SC. That's extra gravy for bowlers who are already great around the world: Hadlee, McGrath, and Marshall,

 

[Coronis]

I'd like to know who these bowlers are you speak of. Imran and Wasim are both rated in the top 10 pacers of all time. What more do you want than that?

He wants them rated above Ambrose, and he won’t rest until it happens.

 

[Slifer]

Yes. Steyn and McGrath get a lot of credit for their superb subcontinent record. It's why they edge out Lillee in polls on this forum.

McGraths claim to fame really is being the only real atg pacer for a period of time in the flat/high scoring era.

 

[Slifer]

Subz, I'm still waiting on a response to the following:

"Antigua. Faislabad is a graveyard as Lillee said. And Faislabad is closer to the norm in Pakistan than Antigua was to other WI pitches."

WI played Pakistan in Faislabad in '80, '86 and '90, the highest team total was 328 runs in 1986 by Pakistan. As a matter of fact, over the course of 3 series and 10 tests, neither team crossed 400 runs as a team total.

Your comments are in quotes.

 

[subshakerz]

It's not really adapation if you are from a country is it? The fact that it's a more specific skill does make it more impressive though. There's also the fact that with the exception of reverse in Pakistan, if you have the skillset to succeed in a country (as home bowlers typically should) conditions will typically be kinder to bowlers outside Asia.

I mean, this is kinda of my point. You need something extraordinary to produce worldclass figures as a pacer in Pakistan over an entire career compared to playing on greentops.

Even in India with Kapil, to achieve his 26 average over an entire career to me would likely be a sub-25 effort in SENA.

 

[subshakerz]

Subz, I'm still waiting on a response to the following:

"Antigua. Faislabad is a graveyard as Lillee said. And Faislabad is closer to the norm in Pakistan than Antigua was to other WI pitches."

WI played Pakistan in Faislabad in '80, '86 and '90, the highest team total was 328 runs in 1986 by Pakistan. As a matter of fact, over the course of 3 series and 10 tests, neither team crossed 400 runs as a team total.

Your comments are in quotes.

Sorry I missed that. Yeah those occasions are quite exceptional but not totally surprising given the quality of bowlers involved.