Do SC Pacers Deserve More Credit For Home Performances?

[subshakerz]

Yeah. Was so random. I get cold sweats thinking about that era of Aus cricket. Fmd they were soooooooo bad, mostly due to inexperience and the SA your blokes being out but just levels below where they needed to be.

not that a lot of the SA blokes were world beaters, but a lot better than the likes of Dave Gilbert and Chris Matthews

Pak really missed out from beating Aus then. They played in Chappells and Lillee's last series and then next was 90 when Aus cricket was back in order.

 

[HouHsiaoHsien]

Again, if we're going to give extra credit to Asian bowlers who do well at home, we're also going to downgrade them when they do worse in more favorable conditions? Yes or no? Imran who is the reason for this thread (let's be honest) was amazing in Pakistan but was distinctly worse in England and Australia to the tune of an extra 5 and 10 runs in his average and + 15-20 or so more balls in his strike rate.

Give them extra credit for doing well in Asia but they're getting points deducted when they underperform in more favorable conditions.

Yep context needs to be judged.

 

[subshakerz]

While that is true and SC conditions are tougher, some things need to be taken into account, for example if a bowler has grown up in and trained according to certain conditions, they are more likely to do well there than an overseas bowler on those pitches on average. So to some extent, if SENA bowlers grew up in SC, their bowling styles and strengths would be different according to the conditions. Hence we can’t know if SENA bowlers were born in Asia, how would they perform. Further specifically in the Steyn comparison, he was a god of reverse swing, so if he played for a majority of matches in SC, he would’ve succeeded.

Ok but let's use some common sense and say it is far easier for an up and coming pacer to adapt and thrive in certain conditions.

England has produced many, many reasonably good seamers of the 27-29 average category, India barely a handful. Are we going to pretend that is just down to England just being blessed with more skill or is it just objectively harder to be pacer in India historically given the conditions, regardless of adaption.

 

[subshakerz]

Ok. Would you prefer Faislabad or the Antigua Recreation Ground??

Antigua. Faislabad is a graveyard as Lillee said. And Faislabad is closer to the norm in Pakistan than Antigua was to other WI pitches.

 

[TheJediBrah]

England has produced many, many reasonably good seamers of the 27-29 average category, India barely a handful.

If you're growing up in England you're more likely to try and be a seamer, and more likely to be a spinner in India. There are many factors to this

 

[HouHsiaoHsien]

Ok but let's use some common sense and say it is far easier for an up and coming pacer to adapt and thrive in certain conditions.

England has produced many, many reasonably good seamers of the 27-29 average category, India barely a handful. Are we going to pretend that is just down to England just being blessed with more skill or is it just objectively harder to be pacer in India historically given the conditions, regardless of adaption.

I agree SC is harder, but before reducing the average points further context needs to be judged. For example the Imran-Steyn comparison of home record. And Kapil’s case of being very good at home, but horrid in swinging conditions

 

[Slifer]

The latter happens all the time.

The former never happens though, which is the entire problem.

They're not going to get extra credit because in the case of Wasim and Imran, they were amazing in Pakistan but much less so in India. I'm not considering SL since they weren't a batting force during either player's career.

 

[subshakerz]

If you're growing up in England you're more likely to try and be a seamer, and more likely to be a spinner in India. There are many factors to this

Granted but we can all agree pitches play a big role.

 

[srbhkshk]

If you're growing up in England you're more likely to try and be a seamer, and more likely to be a spinner in India. There are many factors to this

??? That's because the pitches in India don't support seamers. If you could rock on in India or Pakistan bowling 125 kmph with some movement and average 20 we would have plenty of such players.

 

[subshakerz]

They're not going to get extra credit because in the case of Wasim and Imran, they were amazing in Pakistan but much less so in India. I'm not considering SL since they weren't a batting force during either player's career.

So by that logic will you agree that Kallis shouldn't get extra credit for being a success at home because he was sub par in England?

Imran and Wasims home achievements representing a big portion of their career stand alone and should be given due upgrading otherwise it's double standards.

 

[Sunil1z]

No.
SC pacers also have decent average because of pressure created by their spin bowlers .
So they should be judged by how they do outside Asia where their spinners won’t be making same impact. Same criteria should be applied to SENA spinners. They should be judged by how they do in Asia.

Batsmen should be judged by overall performance because they don’t have it easy anywhere. It takes 1 ball to get them out .

 

[Slifer]

Antigua. Faislabad is a graveyard as Lillee said. And Faislabad is closer to the norm in Pakistan than Antigua was to other WI pitches.

WI played Pakistan in Faislabad in '80, '86 and '90, the highest team total was 328 runs in 1986 by Pakistan. As a matter of fact, over the course of 3 series and 10 tests, neither team crossed 400 runs as a team total.

 

[Slifer]

So by that logic will you agree that Kallis shouldn't get extra credit for being a success at home because he was sub par in England?

Imran and Wasims home achievements representing a big portion of their career should be given due upgrading otherwise it's double standards.

I give no batsmen extra credit with the exception of Openers and I take credit away from Chanderpaul specifically because he was a selfish crab

 

[subshakerz]

I give no batsmen extra credit with the exception of Openers and I take credit away from Chanderpaul specifically because he was a selfish crab

Ok as long as you are consistent and never give batsmen or bowlers any credit for playing conditions ever.

 

[PlayerComparisons]

Jadeja > Warne

Conditions don’t matter

 

[subshakerz]

No.
SC pacers also have decent average because of pressure created by their spin bowlers .
So they should be judged by how they do outside Asia where their spinners won’t be making same impact. Same criteria should be applied to SENA spinners. They should be judged by how they do in Asia.

Batsmen should be judged by overall performance because they don’t have it easy anywhere. It takes 1 ball to get them out .

None of this makes any sense to me sorry.

 

[HouHsiaoHsien]

So by that logic will you agree that Kallis shouldn't get extra credit for being a success at home because he was sub par in England?

Imran and Wasims home achievements representing a big portion of their career stand alone and should be given due upgrading otherwise it's double standards.

English and SA conditions are different. SC conditions are somewhat similar, in being tough for pace. When you are taking Imran and Wasim’s case you are saying they were great in SC, not only Pak. So not doing well in India is going to impact. That’s why someone like Marshall is the best ever in SC

 

[Coronis]

Yes pretty much this. And the problem is that almost all posters will acknowledge this, yet then in practice will compare Kapil's round average with Bothams by the same standards and simply ignore the extra effort and skill it took Kapil to achieve those home figures.

lol. Yet Kapil sucks in England and Botham was quality in both. Clearly one actually has the extra skill to do well in both.

 

[HouHsiaoHsien]

And even Steyn for performing against ATG lineups(in those conditions) in India(despite not being that good in SL).

 

[subshakerz]

I agree SC is harder, but before reducing the average points further context needs to be judged. For example the Imran-Steyn comparison of home record. And Kapil’s case of being very good at home, but horrid in swinging conditions

Again, back to the point. Failing in swinging conditions is already penalised by default. It is success at home that isn't given more credit.

So Kapil loses points in England but gains virtually none for what he has done in India where he is treated the same level as an average English seamer.