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Is Ravichandran Ashwin an ATG test bowler?

Is Ravichandran Ashwin an ATG test bowler?


  • Total voters
    75

ma1978

International Debutant
All of this is true, period.

It doesn't stop is though for applying this logic to everyone one else. A few here have used this to target Ambrose re India, despite the fact that he never had a chance to play there, through injury, and that he's more than proven himself in flatter conditions. Even then some said the pitches in pak wasn't flat enough when he toured.

The great Everton Weekes, many though he was not only better than the other Was, but Headley (including Bradman if I recall correctly), and was primed to perform well in Australia before a devastating injury that never quite healed. So while averaging 58 overall he averaged 24 in Australia and 33 in England. But of course he had good performances in both places, 2 50's down under and, 1 100 and 4 50's in England, but overall he failed. And he's basically called a FTB or HTB. He was a magnificent batsman but we can't overlook those "holes" as you put it.

You're saying we can't treat each individual country based on historical context, and that's true, but we aren't talking about nit picking, or looking for a gotcha moment. But if there are 3 good opposing teams and you've failed in each one, that's a concern. It's not a matter of conditions change and it's X or Y country, it's literally all of them, it's not an anomaly.

And for the record I'm not even discussing with regards to titles here, Laker has an amazing record, no one outs him the the same zone as the top 3, far less tier, and I'm saying that while no doubt a fabulous bowler and among the greats, if you're most successful I conditions when the opposing team has to also play 3 spinners, you're very conditions dependant.

It's why we look at fast bowlers record on same SC and generally away from home and against the best opposition. In everyone's record we look to see how they performed in Australia, England, SA, India and back in the day when it mattered, the Caribbean. That's how legacies are forged and it not enough to exist in an echo chamber and state that only home matters. That's never been the case for any country or player. Imran and Sunny made their marks based on how they did in the WI, Marshall in India and Pakistan, Steyn in India, Smith in India etc etc.
this is just nonsense

none of these players legacies are down to how they did in a fraction of their games abroad, their legacies are about how they performed overall on a long career. India is a tiny part of Smith or Steyn’s legacy. Gavaskar will be remembered for averaging over 50 as an opener for 125 tests in one of the toughest batting eras in history, the Windies is a decent part of that but not the majority. Only obscurantists think of India and Pakistan when they think of Maco; I think of him at the Kensington Oval, swatting away all comers.

Oh and Sir Everton Weekes is a ATG. How he did old or injured in England and Australia has nothing to do with his perception
 

kyear2

International Coach
this is just nonsense

none of these players legacies are down to how they did in a fraction of their games abroad, their legacies are about how they performed overall on a long career. India is a tiny part of Smith or Steyn’s legacy. Gavaskar will be remembered for averaging over 50 as an opener for 125 tests in one of the toughest batting eras in history, the Windies is a decent part of that but not the majority. Only obscurantists think of India and Pakistan when they think of Maco; I think of him at the Kensington Oval, swatting away all comers.

Oh and Sir Everton Weekes is a ATG. How he did old or injured in England and Australia has nothing to do with his perception
And this is revisionist and shifting goal posts to suit narratives. The reason Marshall, McGrath and Hadlee are seen as highly as they are is their success everywhere.

The reason Weekes isn't seen by anyone here as upper echelon is because of his record in England and Australia

Subz uses Imran's record against and especially in the west indies to prove his bonafides. So as much as you guys says he shifts goal posts he's consistent about that, he looks at the overall record, a rad too deeply but that's his take that's being expressed here that he's always used.

And regardless how you want to spin it, what you do away from home matters, always have.
 

ma1978

International Debutant
And this is revisionist and shifting goal posts to suit narratives. The reason Marshall, McGrath and Hadlee are seen as highly as they are is their success everywhere.

The reason Weekes isn't seen by anyone here as upper echelon is because of his record in England and Australia

Subz uses Imran's record against and especially in the west indies to prove his bonafides. So as much as you guys says he shifts goal posts he's consistent about that, he looks at the overall record, a rad too deeply but that's his take that's being expressed here that he's always used.

And regardless how you want to spin it, what you do away from home matters, always have.
I don’t deny that. What you’re saying is it’s the only thing that matter and in your case, even a small subset of away.

and really about Sir Everton, no one in this board’s opinions matter. Hear Clive Lloyd or read Hilary Beckles, Tony Cozier or CLR James
 

ma1978

International Debutant

Hilary Beckles on Sir Everton

all you see is a guy whose numbers look soft in two places. His contemporaries and those who have analysed his career so the best batsman in the world in the 1950s and a GOAT West a Indian
 

Coronis

International Coach

Hilary Beckles on Sir Everton

all you see is a guy whose numbers look soft in two places. His contemporaries and those who have analysed his career so the best batsman in the world in the 1950s and a GOAT West a Indian
Cool story bro
 

kyear2

International Coach
I don’t deny that. What you’re saying is it’s the only thing that matter and in your case, even a small subset of away.

and really about Sir Everton, no one in this board’s opinions matter. Hear Clive Lloyd or read Hilary Beckles, Tony Cozier or CLR James
While you don't think they matter, it surely is the general opinion of the community.
 

kyear2

International Coach

Hilary Beckles on Sir Everton

all you see is a guy whose numbers look soft in two places. His contemporaries and those who have analysed his career so the best batsman in the world in the 1950s and a GOAT West a Indian
I did acknowledge all of those things in my post, I believe even Bradman thought him better than Headley and seen as among the very best in the 50's if not the best.

And thanks for the link, hadn't seen that one before.
 

ma1978

International Debutant
I did acknowledge all of those things in my post, I believe even Bradman thought him better than Headley and seen as among the very best in the 50's if not the best.

And thanks for the link, hadn't seen that one before.
then how do you point to some stats without context to place him lower than his obvious peers
 

ma1978

International Debutant
Because short comings are just that. He didn't prove himself the two places that were most important.
That’s because you just read stats without context. It was a historic low scoring series where the Windies won their first test in England. He was critical. Songs were written.
 

kyear2

International Coach
That’s because you just read stats without context. It was a historic low scoring series where the Windies won their first test in England. He was critical. Songs were written.
I've read books about the series, that and the Australian one, there is context, but at the end of the day his record just isn't that complete. Those are the two big tests, it's hard to "fail" both.
 

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